tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post6566713384086525445..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Captain America Must Die: Captain America 176Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-17713493656716521102014-04-08T03:58:05.147-05:002014-04-08T03:58:05.147-05:00Um, Mike, don't know if you're being facet...Um, Mike, don't know if you're being facetious, but Deep Throat's identity is no longer a mystery. It was Mark Felt, who at the time of the Watergate scandal was, I believe, a bigwig in the FBI (deputy or assistant director or something like that). He acknowledged this in 2005...Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-21785768305223022982014-04-07T20:21:51.208-05:002014-04-07T20:21:51.208-05:00First impressions - I think Thor connected well wi...First impressions - I think Thor connected well with Cap on an elemental level because both of them are warriors at heart; Cap is a truly patriotic soldier and Thor is a warrior prince of Asgard after all. Even though I was never a fan of the Iron Man 'nose' it kinda looks OK here.<br /><br />Yes, I do agree that this story stands up because it parallels the uncertainty that the American public felt in the aftermath of Watergate. If the leaders of the nation could set such a bad example, why should the people trust or follow them?<br /><br />I think this was at the heart of Cap's self doubt here - all the values he held dear were suddenly turned on their end. Being a living symbol of American values didn't seem all that important anymore. He didn't know what to do now. Englehart brilliantly captures Cap's inner conflict in this story. <br /><br />I haven't seen the Winter Soldier movie yet but if it does incorporate Cap's questioning of his values in a post 9/11 world then that's a good step. Fortunately, all the reviews are mostly positive.<br /><br /><br />- Mike 'who was Deep Throat?' from Trinidad & Tobago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-56377663436140174332014-04-07T19:28:30.401-05:002014-04-07T19:28:30.401-05:00I remember the election of 1972, when I was 10 yea...I remember the election of 1972, when I was 10 years old. At my school, Bonneville Elementary in Salt Lake City they had us kids cast our votes for the presidency (at that age I had no idea it didn't really count, but maybe it was to get us used to the idea of voting). Now in that era, I don't recall my parents ever discussing politics, or any major social issues. My dad was in the Navy (on recruiting duty in SLC), but wasn't particularly conservative; they were more middle of the road, I suppose. My pre-adolescent self really had no clue as to the differences between Nixon and McGovern, but since Nixon was President I picked him, and when they announced the results a couple of days later, the results of the school election echoed the election that put Nixon back in the White House for a 2nd term. Less than two years later, with Watergate an ongoing reality tv show for months or however long it was, I was gradually coming to the realization that authority figures aren't necessarily honest or well-meaning. This aspect of the aftermath of the Secret Empire storyline was part of the growing up of superhero comics of the early '70s. Of course, back then they would only go so far -- Harry freaked out on drugs and Gwen was murdered, but Reed and Sue eventually got back together and Franklin was cured; Cap got over his crisis and back into uniform, much wiser than when he saw Number One, whoever he was, blow his brains out. BTW, I wonder if in the MU the official line is that Number One killed President Nixon before Cap could stop him -- without revealing that Number One WAS Nixon, so a sort of half truth. But if they took that route, who would they say was Number One? Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-43530806039517538022014-04-07T18:32:37.372-05:002014-04-07T18:32:37.372-05:00Put something in her hair, J.A., and I could defin...Put something in her hair, J.A., and I could definitely see that.<br /><br />It's sort of funny -- sometimes we talk about stories holding/not holding up. If I am reading everyone correctly, this storyline holds up <i>because</i> it's anchored in the mid-1970s. The fact that it is dated by quasi-historical events seems to elevate it above other story ideas from the Bronze Age that seem silly or passe' on the 40-years later re-read.<br /><br />Karen and I have discussed doing the Nomad storyline for 2015, but like many of you, we are <b>not</b> looking forward to the art in the latter 1/3 of the arc. And I've gone on record as saying that Herb Trimpe's finest hour had passed by 1975; Hulky Herbie was an oasis, however, near the end of the story as David mentioned.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-70880915729337553422014-04-07T18:25:45.648-05:002014-04-07T18:25:45.648-05:00Does anyone else get a "Gwen Stacy" vibe...Does anyone else get a "Gwen Stacy" vibe from Romita's rendition of Sharon on the cover?J.A. Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15800901321134394272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-20672024969939328802014-04-07T17:43:39.735-05:002014-04-07T17:43:39.735-05:00Karen, you are correct. What is hard for the pres...Karen, you are correct. What is hard for the present us to remember is the times that we were born and grew up in. America, as a country, had saved a world, fought communism, witnessed Camelot come to life, put a man on the moon, made a commitment to save a government over there and befriended a tiny country surrounded by enemies. The greatest generation had know basically one success after another. Every time their leaders of this country had challenged them, they had risen to the occasion. But now the strings at the bottom of the tapestry were unraveling. The DNC in Detroit, National Guards in Ohio and the deep South, the use of terror to kill many of our national leaders were all changing what our country felt and believed. <br /><br />As I said before, Cap wanted to join SHIELD because he saw it as the greatest defense of our way of life. Now, so many decades later, we ask ourselves, what price liberty, what price freedom, what price security? Does it matter who we vote for? They're all crooks anyway. <br /><br />I think it's hard to remember that times weren't just simpler because we were younger, but because we knew less. Mr. Engelhart made mention of there being fewer only four major networks, and I agree, but how many of our major stories were broken by newsmen? The modern day, real life Phil Sheldons, Chloe Sullivans, Lois Lanes.<br /><br />The Prowler (remembers the first time his cape got stuck in his bike chain).<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-13501476370444151212014-04-07T12:50:59.707-05:002014-04-07T12:50:59.707-05:00Agreed and agreed. This issue really, I mean REALL...Agreed and agreed. This issue really, I mean REALLY spoke to it's time of publication. Our world was quite different at that time.<br /><br />It felt like a national fabric was unraveling, to an extent. It was one thing to politely mock a president in media, which was done with much more civility back then. But to have a president's administration exposed with such surgical scrutiny in papers, on radio, on national television for MONTHS..<br /><br />It was unlike any other event, the only other event which may come close was Iran Contra and of course, Bill Clinton's impeachment for perjury. Nixon of course left office prior to any impeachment. It made August 1974 (the cover date on this issue...) very monumental.<br /><br />Back to this ish, it was one of the few actual "OMG, OMG" feelings I ever recall reading comics, next to Reed&Sue's separation, which was being played out during the same time. For a young Marvel Zuvembie, this was indeed the most riveting time. While meant for the college crowd, I indeed found myself in good company being drawn into this story. Along with local softball and escaping the Watergate coverage, this issue defined my summer of 1974.<br /><br />I'm for one was VERY glad and relieved that Marvel (or Steve..) never came back and established the identity of Number 1. <br /><br />What's wrong with mystery..?? Just.., 'leave it alone'. The story's comes off much better simply not knowing.<br /><br />Sal's drawing was perfect here. He could do those famous mid-air pile-drivin' whompings when he wanted, but he really mastered expressions here. As already mentioned, everyone's speaking parts and contributions were spot on and well-paced as the story unfolded. <br /><br />Great mention on that 2-page history recap spread, just a magnificent idea. <br /><br />More so than any other issue of Cap, Steve Rogers was truely a thinking, breathing human being here. The pinnacle of my CA&F devotion..<br /><br />Sidenote: Fred, great point on Robbins. I really wish Sal would have stayed on. That terrible art was such a slap in the face in ish 182 and onward. Herb Trimpe was a welcome relief in ish 184 if only for one issue; graciously Sal came back for ish 188 as well.<br /><br />Indeed, Marvel at it's Bronze finest.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-47126727829406556912014-04-07T12:23:34.258-05:002014-04-07T12:23:34.258-05:00Well stated Karen. It's also important to rem...Well stated Karen. It's also important to remember that this issue would've been sold to and read by kids at the local mom & pop drug store. Lots of them probably would've been shocked to read what Captain America said in this issue. I figure Englehart was talking to them as much as the older college-age crowd that began reading Marvel comics in the 60s.J.A. Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15800901321134394272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-23226050549340931192014-04-07T11:40:54.216-05:002014-04-07T11:40:54.216-05:00Colin, I think you really have to consider the tim...Colin, I think you really have to consider the time in which this was written. There actually were people who looked up to politicians as leaders and men of integrity. Cap, as a man coming from the 30s and 40s, still had a very different mind set than the young rebels of the 60s and 70s who surrounded him. Englehart was breaking down that man from the past and rebuilding him right here in front of our eyes. He had to go through stages -he became bitter and angry, he was hurt, he was frustrated -but eventually, Cap's more positive side won out. He decided that the ideals of America were still good, and he could still stand for those ideals. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant way to take a character that could have become completely irrelevant, or even a laughingstock, and turn him into someone who mattered again.<br /><br />We see some of this in the new Cap film, as he struggles to work for SHIELD, to understand how the world has changed and figure out what role he can play. I definitely felt there were some echoes of Englehart's work in the movie.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-40882486588468955652014-04-07T11:30:03.269-05:002014-04-07T11:30:03.269-05:00Thanks for the Englehart writeup, Dr. Oyola. Good ...Thanks for the Englehart writeup, Dr. Oyola. Good to see him connect the '70s with today's political situation. I want to read more by him now--wish he was still writing comics! I see he has a recent novel series with a character Max August. Anyone here read these? Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-84324914678125577792014-04-07T11:00:16.713-05:002014-04-07T11:00:16.713-05:00It's interesting to read through these reviews...It's interesting to read through these reviews, and the storyline seems quite significant for the times. Growing up next door in Canada, the atmosphere felt quite different, at least to my 6 year old self in '74. Trudeau was still a popular leader, we'd just had the big success of Expo '67 and the '72 hockey series against the USSR--the situation felt much more positive and unified in Canada than in the US. So this Cap storyline would've seemed quite distant to me then, but I think I could enjoy it more now.<br /><br />Sal's drawing and layouts look solid throughout, but it would be nice to see an inker who could add more detail and personality on top. Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-69047239858678325282014-04-07T09:46:25.480-05:002014-04-07T09:46:25.480-05:00Since Comicsfan asked the question and I am not su...Since Comicsfan asked the question and I am not sure how many people saw this in the last post on Cap. . . here is this link again: <a href="http://13thdimension.com/captain-america-and-todays-secret-empire-by-steve-englehart/" rel="nofollow">Captain America and Today’s ‘Secret Empire,’ by STEVE ENGLEHART</a>Dr. Oyolahttp://themiddlespaces.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-19196918468221174222014-04-07T08:47:15.057-05:002014-04-07T08:47:15.057-05:00Ok, I need to intake another cupful of java before...Ok, I need to intake another cupful of java before I start..<br /><br />{gulp..} whew..<br /><br />This issue was BIG. <br /><br />HUGE. <br /><br />PIVOTAL. <br /><br />Not that I read a lot of comics by the time this came out, but I clearly understand this didn't happen much in comicdom.. A virtual 'time-out' from the action, an issue set aside totally for self-absorbed (perhaps for you critics..), self-analysis.<br /><br />Why not....? It certainly was a Bronze milestone. <br /><br />How many other comics ever did this..? ASM ish 50 scratched the surface, but to have your hero not only self-reflect.., but then quit for several issues..?<br /><br />This was Steve's CA&F unmatched masterpiece. After a long story arc like the Empire, to have to go into this..?<br /><br />Got to get back to work for a few, but I'll definitely chime in more in a few. <br /><br />"Go on, talk amongst yourselves.."david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-22956914821078486912014-04-07T08:32:10.598-05:002014-04-07T08:32:10.598-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-68625043030643132972014-04-07T08:18:01.280-05:002014-04-07T08:18:01.280-05:00Another great review, Karen & Doug. Since I...Another great review, Karen & Doug. Since I've never read this story, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this one (and not just in this particular post).<br />By the way, I really like Sal's Sterankoesque flashback sequence on that double-page splash.<br /><br />Comicsfan, you're right, it was never explicitly stated that Cap came across the president. Englehart himself has said he left that deliberately ambiguous. Most people, however, assume it was Nixon, and given the context of the Watergate/post-Watergate time in which it was written it's easy to see why this would be so.<br /><br />Otherwise, I hope you do decide to review the Nomad story some time down the road...Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-11642947316108922662014-04-07T07:27:51.459-05:002014-04-07T07:27:51.459-05:00Was it ever firmly established that it was the Pre...Was it ever firmly established that it was the <i>President</i> who offed himself in the oval office? As Doug notes, that kind of news isn't going to be able to be "clamped down on" or however Englehart attempts to sweep it under the rug and keep it as a "Cap's eyes only" event. I always felt it was simply a high-level politician who had a lot of responsibilities and visibility in the administration, a person that Cap and probably many others knew by reputation and who had credentials that were beyond reproach. The point, after all, wasn't the person's actual identity or political standing--it was the impact it would make on Cap that such a major representative of the U.S. government would be steeped in corruption and treason.<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-65807190759854978072014-04-07T06:35:02.104-05:002014-04-07T06:35:02.104-05:00Great overview of this classic, Doug & Karen. ...Great overview of this classic, Doug & Karen. As Reinstein/Erskine, I believe in the original 1941 story, Reinstein was the name used, obviously derived from the most famous scientist of the day, Einstein -- too obviously, as in a later origin, written by Lee (I think) it was revealed that his real name was Erskine and that Reinstein was merely a code name.<br />Anyhow, for my 12 year old self first reading this story it was quite a shocker but it kept me hooked wanting to know, what's going to happen next? At that time I hadn't even read the stories where Spidey hung up his costume, in ASM's 17 & 50. Of course, Cap's hanging up of his cowl & shield was much more drawn out, but it entirely made sense and this was a great story arc, although I wish our pal Sal had been able to stay around to pencil the whole thing. When Frank Robbins took over, I still enjoyed the story, but loathed the art.Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.com