tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post826965983470853563..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Marvel and DC: Side-by-Side in 1980Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-32833381340709719162011-04-16T08:38:03.107-05:002011-04-16T08:38:03.107-05:00This was when I was buying a ton of Marvels. What ...This was when I was buying a ton of Marvels. What struck me about Avengers #200 is that Ms. Marvel's offspring/lover was named Marcus. Which is my name and that kinda freaked me out.Marcushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09474942838770899970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63288591269387124182011-04-15T15:02:48.453-05:002011-04-15T15:02:48.453-05:00Avengers #200 is my all-time favorite comic book c...Avengers #200 is my all-time favorite comic book cover.<br />At the time i first read it (around 1984- i think i ordered it from Mile High for 50 cents), I wasn't even phased by the adult themes.<br /><br />Also, Karen's comment about the Legion losing it's "teen team" appeal is apt. When I first picked up some Legion comics (@ 1984), the team seemed to be well established (duh) and full of adults. It wasn't until Who's Who that I learned about the whole "teens from the future" origin of the Legion.<br /><br />This post reminded me why I became a comic book nut. When i started seriously (??) collecting comics was 1984-1985. And Teen Titan's "Judas Contract" just BLEW MY MIND. Also Secret Wars, Crisis,Byrne's FF, Simonson's Thor, Claremont's X-men and New Mutants, Marvel Team-up and DC PRESENTs were still around, West Coast Avengers, and of course, Marvel Universe Handbook and Who's Who.......what a great time to be ten years old, and a couple bucks bought you 3 Marvel comics. I'm not sure if 84 is considered the Bronze Age, but i think comics were still pretty good.<br /><br />Speaking of "Judas Contract", I WAS pretty weirded out that Terra and Slade had a semi-erotic relationship.<br /><br />starfoxxxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-5930360850127432202011-04-15T10:57:26.683-05:002011-04-15T10:57:26.683-05:00Edo -what a great idea for a post! Thank you! '...Edo -what a great idea for a post! Thank you! 'Where did the X-Men go wrong?' is sure to stir up a lot of debate. Look for it next Friday.<br /><br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-88565668525106103562011-04-15T02:49:31.975-05:002011-04-15T02:49:31.975-05:00Karen and dbutler, you make some good points - in ...Karen and dbutler, you make some good points - in fact, it might be worth an entire post. Namely, I've often found myself thinking about where X-men went wrong, and came to the conclusion that the seeds were planted at the peak of Claremont's powers, in stories that were otherwise really good: the Dark Phoenix saga (i.e. Jean Grey should have stayed dead. Period.) and "Days of Future Past" - using characters and situations from that dystopian future pretty much became a storytelling crutch for Claremont. I would also add the introduction of that whole Belasco/limbo/Magick thing as the third major harbinger of woe in the X-universe...Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-7472387707618375122011-04-14T15:16:59.689-05:002011-04-14T15:16:59.689-05:00I agree on both counts, Karen. The adult Legion w...I agree on both counts, Karen. The adult Legion was a bad idea, IMO, because it hemmed in future writers, but Days of Future Past was the beginning of the end for me with the X-Men, though it was still great for several years afterwards, it planted the seeds of self-destruction...dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-61918546529912315702011-04-14T10:10:03.328-05:002011-04-14T10:10:03.328-05:00"Days of Future past" was a great story ..."Days of Future past" was a great story on its own, but yes, it gunked up the works when people saw it as being an inevitable future. Sort of like the way the Adult legion stories made certain events seem to be cast in stone. Although I think the situation with X-Men was worse than with Legion.<br /><br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-76009725390871127552011-04-14T08:46:12.790-05:002011-04-14T08:46:12.790-05:00Regarding J.A. Morris' comment about "Day...Regarding J.A. Morris' comment about "Days of Future Past" I just have to say, since he mentioned it, that while I loved the Dark Phoenix Saga, and everything Claremont had done up to then, I never did care for "Days of Future Past". I didn't like it then, and I like it even less now, as I believe it's responsible for much of what has been wrong with the X-Men for about the past 25 years. All of these characters from some bleak alternate future timeline joining the mainstream X-Men is just ridiculous, in my opinion.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-89194089738436728982011-04-13T21:09:32.879-05:002011-04-13T21:09:32.879-05:001980 retains some melancholy memories for me -- th...1980 retains some melancholy memories for me -- the year I graduated high school and last saw a woman I had a mad crush on during the previous 3 years, and then the shock of John Lennon's murder. <br />Comics-wise, for me X-Men and Daredevil were the highlights, but as J. A. mentioned, Stern told some great tales in Spectacular Spider-Man and Captain America had some great writing & art too. <br />IMO, however, the Avengers were on a downswing even before ish 200. That particular issue I initially regarded as just rather lame, but Claremont's response in that later Annual truly did point out how truly awful it was.<br />I didn't get into the Teen Titans myself, but by the late '80s I'd quit collecting Marvel titles altogether but was collecting a few DC or Vertigo titles. The differences in the house styles of Marvel and DC became less distinct during the decade, especially with so many artists & writers going back & forth or working for both companies at the same time. Generally, though, I think DC stories took on a more mature tone, with much better writing, while with few exceptions Marvel went into decline, despite a few highlights, particularly Simonson's run on Thor.Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-24824113514586212382011-04-13T19:17:04.022-05:002011-04-13T19:17:04.022-05:00Have to agree with J.A. Morris that Spectacular ec...Have to agree with J.A. Morris that Spectacular eclipsed Amazing at the time. The Spiderman Annual with Dr. Strange and Dr. Doom was pretty nice, though...Redartznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-21812719216370726622011-04-13T16:51:03.493-05:002011-04-13T16:51:03.493-05:00I'll have to give Marvel the edge over DC for ...I'll have to give Marvel the edge over DC for this year, based on 'Dark Phoenix'. Plus that was followed by the 2-part 'Days Of Future Past' Sentinels story. Both these stories impact Marvel's continuity(for better or worse)to this day. We've seen multiple adaptations of 'Days' on film and in X-men animated shows. And to close out '80, we got the Christmas-themed #143, where Kitty showed defeated the N'Gari demon all by herself. <br /><br />I liked 'New Teen Titans', I never bought it regularly but I read a friend's in the book's early days. The Perez art was great looking, and Terminator was cool. But I never liked Robin, his presence brought down the Titans' cool quotient for me ten fold. I've expressed my feelings about Robin here in the past:<br />http://bronzeagebabies.blogspot.com/2010/10/which-characters-dont-even-register-on.html<br />So I'll leave it at that. <br /><br />A sentimental favorite for me from 1980 is Roger Stern's run on 'Spectacular Spider-Man'(which was better than 'Amazing Spider-Man' that year), from about #43-52. Stern gave us some nice stories featuring Vulture,Mysterio,Cobra. A revolving door of artists makes these issues a notch below "classic",but these stories are fun and can be found in a tpb that was published a few years back:<br />http://marvel.com/comic_books/collection/6319/spider-man_visionaries_roger_stern_vol_1_trade_paperback<br />Worth checking out if you're unfamiliar with the stories.J.A. Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15800901321134394272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63450679675981102662011-04-13T14:53:36.682-05:002011-04-13T14:53:36.682-05:00Wretch - it was still Shooter who made the final c...Wretch - it was still Shooter who made the final call and as DButler says, I believe all were credited as a sort of written by committee on that issue.<br /><br />I'm not a fan of what Marvel became under Shooter. This was definitely a low point. On the other hand, I think the Dark Phoenix storyline played out better with Jean's death (which Shooter belatedly demanded) than it would have if she'd remained alive but essentially lobotomized.<br /><br />In both cases, I think the main problem was, editors were not doing their jobs on these titles and drastic changes had to be undertaken rapidly to change stories. With X-Men, it actually worked to its benefit, but with Avengers, it turned out to be a travesty.<br /><br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-42493953403851626102011-04-13T14:22:10.187-05:002011-04-13T14:22:10.187-05:00Edo --
I agree with you that our tone seems negat...Edo --<br /><br />I agree with you that our tone seems negative. I think much of that stems from (I cannot believe I am going to say this) the lack of big events. And I mean that from the standpoint of big-time character introductions, a new writer or artist coming onto a title and revolutionizing/revitalizing it, etc.<br /><br />Wait until 1982 -- you'll see what I mean. There were some genre-changing things in that year.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-74767951280154747602011-04-13T14:15:17.730-05:002011-04-13T14:15:17.730-05:00Ooops. Sorry, I just realized I made a mistake: Av...Ooops. Sorry, I just realized I made a mistake: Avengers Annual #10, not #11.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-10421263691855763772011-04-13T14:13:42.873-05:002011-04-13T14:13:42.873-05:00Yeah, Avengers #200 - I'll admit I was still y...Yeah, Avengers #200 - I'll admit I was still young enough that the full implications of the story pretty much flew over my head at the time, although I remember even then it kind of creeped me out that Ms. Marvel left to be with a 'lover' she had just given birth to. It was only after I read Claremont's "response" in Avengers Annual #11 that I realized how truly atrocious that story was.<br />And Dazzler - I couldn't believe they introduced a disco-themed heroine at a time when the whole disco fad had not only passed but had already become the butt of jokes...<br />Otherwise, the tone of your review makes it seem like 1980 was a dull year in comics (with the exception of the X-men) just waiting for the burst of color brought by the New Teen Titans. I kind of remember it as a rather exciting year in comics: besides X-men and Teen Titans, Avengers was still a great title (until #200), Captain America was being done by the Stern/Byrne dream team (best Cap run, ever), Miller's run on Daredevil was really hitting its stride and personally I really liked DC's Adventure: I loved those Plastic Man and Starman features - fun stories and great art by Staton and Ditko.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-12213325450138378312011-04-13T14:00:22.455-05:002011-04-13T14:00:22.455-05:00Great background info, Karen. That helps explain ...Great background info, Karen. That helps explain that mess. Shooter did a lot of great things, but that wasn't one of them! I think the original plan sounds better, even if it was derivative. <br /><br />To inkstained, I believe Micheline, Shooter, Perez, & Layton all got writing credits on that issue.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-28864663074700343702011-04-13T13:57:34.052-05:002011-04-13T13:57:34.052-05:00Ah, so it was Micheline, not Shooter. My bad.
I g...Ah, so it was Micheline, not Shooter. My bad.<br /><br />I guess there is just a knee-jerk response to blame anything bad that happened at Marvel in those years on Shooter.Inkstained Wretchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-16713803031782730242011-04-13T12:20:18.517-05:002011-04-13T12:20:18.517-05:00Avengers 200...ugh. Well, if I recall correctly, D...Avengers 200...ugh. Well, if I recall correctly, David Michelinie's original plan was that the Kree Supreme Intelligence had caused the pregnancy -Ms. Marvel was well-suited as her genetic structure was now half-kree, half-human. I think the idea was that the off-spring would be capable of evolving, which the Kree no longer were. But the storyline was too similar to some other book that had been recently published and so Shooter demanded they change it. <br /><br />With the changes came all of the insensitivity to the issue of a woman who had essentially been raped. Instead of righteous anger, Ms. Marvel actually falls in love with her rapist and runs off with him. So yeah -not a highpoint for Marvel.<br /><br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-90795468871449021342011-04-13T12:08:52.689-05:002011-04-13T12:08:52.689-05:00Oh, regarding Avengers #200. That was a bit of a ...Oh, regarding Avengers #200. That was a bit of a mess, wasn't it? What a waste of some wonderful Perez art. also, Dave Micheline had been writing some really good stuff for the previous 6 issues, and that all lead up to...this? Ugh. Oddly enough, I had finally started warming up to Ms Marvel, up to this point my least favorite Avenger, with issue #197.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-30602178071350277042011-04-13T11:59:30.530-05:002011-04-13T11:59:30.530-05:00Don’t forget about the Soviet boycott of the ’84 O...Don’t forget about the Soviet boycott of the ’84 Olympics. I still remember riding my bike to McDonalds to get free burgers and fries because the USA had won yet another gold medal in some event we probably wouldn’t have won if the Soviets were there. Mmmm, I’m loving it!<br />I’m a little surprised that Star wars was #2 in sales, but not totally shocked. After all, this is the “comic that saved Marvel” plus, the original trilogy was still coming out, so interest would have been very high. I agree with Karen about Infantino, though. By the time the Dark Phoenix Saga came out, the X-Men were my favorite comic, so I was there for the whole wonderful ride. <br />Yes, the Legion seemed to have grown out of their teens by this time, but I still thought it was a very well done book. Yeah, the Taskmaster definitely evokes ol’ Deathstroke!<br />Oh, that New Teen Titans cover you’re posted gives me a warm fuzzy. Definitely one of best Bronze Age things (after the Legion and maybe O’Neil/Adams Batman & Adams GL/GA) DC had going for it. This was Perez at his absolute best. Also, those DC inserts were fun. Besides the Legion, I remember my Captain Carrot and Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld inserts.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-1085372645519288012011-04-13T10:53:26.444-05:002011-04-13T10:53:26.444-05:00Inkstained --
Remember, we are only citing storie...Inkstained --<br /><br />Remember, we are only citing stories/books/goings on if they are mentioned in our two resources. Avengers #200 wasn't mentioned in the Marvel Chronicle -- and I think you've already intimated at why. Some things are better left unsaid.<br /><br />But since you brought it up -- anyone want to jump in on that train wreck?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-44160222446910269682011-04-13T10:38:04.051-05:002011-04-13T10:38:04.051-05:00I have a fair amount of nostalgia for this year si...I have a fair amount of nostalgia for this year since it was the first onw where I really got into collecting.<br /><br />I am surprised you didn't mention one of the biggest, more baffling events of 1980: Ms. Marvel's pregnancy and birth. Whatever it was that the powers that be intended (It was written by Jim Shooter, right?) with that story, it came out horribly.Inkstained Wretchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-92024854865315004032011-04-13T08:45:06.306-05:002011-04-13T08:45:06.306-05:00Great comments, definitely agreed on the general l...Great comments, definitely agreed on the general lackluster of comic originality and spark, the 'currents of change' for teenage interest was moving towards everything Star Wars, etc.<br /><br />The Titans with Wolfman and George Perez were a HUGE homerun for DC, partially because Marvel didn't have any innovative concepts going on to hold interest. I didn't get into the Titans until about twenty issues in, so I spent a lot of $$ buying up the past issues, then José Luis García-López took over, which was painful.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.com