tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post9000164873344652802..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Under Siege: Avengers 274Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-17073644237901180192013-02-05T15:41:26.320-06:002013-02-05T15:41:26.320-06:00My hands-down favorite line of this issue: "...My hands-down favorite line of this issue: "Thanks for the lift, son!" Followed by Cap casually leaping <i>out of an airborne helicopter</i> and executing a maneuver to land on his feet that even the guys on <i>Jackass</i> might balk at.<br /><br />Then again, Rodney Dangerfield had a similar maneuver on some diving boards that might make even Cap strike a salute.<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-31165771591590934822013-02-05T05:41:58.009-06:002013-02-05T05:41:58.009-06:00First, I'm glad you two had a chance to rechar...First, I'm glad you two had a chance to recharge your batteries in January, and I think the BAB Classics worked very well, since there was a good amount of converstation generated by your reruns.<br />Now, I loved this series when I reread it a few years ago, and it's one of my favorite Avengers stories, but I do find the violence shocking for the time (though we had started to enver the "grim & gritty" era of comics by then).<br /><br />Sure, the Prince of Power's beatdown was shocking, but I imagine Stern wanted to build up the Masters of Evil as being a major threat, plus they had to get the most powerful Avenger (well except for Captain Marvel) out of the way. Plus, it gave a future story, where Odin seeks revenge against the Avengers for Herc's condition.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-61856268079658498192013-02-04T20:48:00.869-06:002013-02-04T20:48:00.869-06:00Man, Blackout is definitely a candidate for 'w...Man, Blackout is definitely a candidate for 'worst super villain costume'!<br /><br />Yeah, it was a shock to see the Lion of Olympus suffer such a beatdown from the Masters of Evil here. I can't recall the Prince of Power ever suffering such a brutal beating whether in the Bronze or Silver Age, going all the way back to his debut in Journey into Mystery. I think Roger Stern purposely had the Son of Zeus beaten badly like this to show that even the most powerful member could fall to this new more deadly incarnation of the Masters of Evil. (I think I've used up all of Herc's nicknames here - any others I missed out?)<br /><br />Looking forward to the review of issue #275!<br /><br /><br />- Mike 'have at thee!' from Trinidad & Tobago. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-7822783233170885162013-02-04T20:47:53.043-06:002013-02-04T20:47:53.043-06:00I'll chime in to agree w/ DavidB back up there...I'll chime in to agree w/ DavidB back up there somewhere-- for the most part, I daresay you should certainly be able to rely on your well-versed community here to go ahead and do the expandin' if we think an initial post needs some fleshing out. There's a pretty big body of knowledge and (well-informed) opinion out here-!<br /><br />Blackout's costume: I kid you not, my first thought upon seeing the scanned pages here was, "Geeze, I'll bet drawing that absurd, outdated design was just DELIGHTFUL for the usually-jaded Mr. Buscema-!" In fact, I wonder if the layout even included the costume details, or if he just left that up to Mr Palmer to take care of entirely?<br /><br />Capt. Monica Marvel: Naw, I have to disagree heartily w/ my esteemed coleague InkyWretch. I always liked her and never stopped rooting for her. I found her uncomplicated intelligence and competence and integrity to be a huge breath of fresh air. There is such a thing as too much angst (*cough* X-MEN *cough*), and if anything, her optimistic, grounded nature seemed much more real to me, in a way, than many other perpetually troubled cast-members.<br /><br />Oh golly, and now I'm-a startin' to fade-- have to reluctantly call it a night. . . <br /><br />HBhumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-7402834732831423462013-02-04T20:03:13.231-06:002013-02-04T20:03:13.231-06:00Matt --
Thanks for the suggestion about combining...Matt --<br /><br />Thanks for the suggestion about combining the posts as essentially 2-for-1's. I'm not sure that's exactly the solution for Karen and I -- time is mainly the culprit, I'm afraid. For example, and please -- don't anyone read this like I'm whining or complaining. Again, we do this because we want to do it, but we also want to present a quality product for those who read the blog. Anyway, specifically in regard to my summary paragraph for <i>Avengers</i> #273, that single paragraph took me over an hour to write. I read the comic, looked through it again for essential information, and then the looking/writing/looking/revising/etc. takes time. With that sort of investment for just a summary, I can't see doing that very often, knowing that a more detailed look at a second comic would be in the same post.<br /><br />I think we've evolved quite a bit since those early BAB posts we reran in January. At least Karen and I feel like we're putting out a solid product when we do reviews. Again, you're getting more than a capsule review and better than some of the "scan sites" give you for your time.<br /><br />So there are no hard feelings today, not at all -- everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what we do and what you expect from us. Those two things aren't always going to match up, and that's fine. Shoot, if everyone just agreed all the time it would be pretty boring. But we want you to know where we're coming from -- we did have a discussion and looked at a few options, the calendar, what else we want to do, etc. Believe me, our readers were definitely considered throughout that dialogue.<br /><br />As to the parameters of the blog, yes, the focus is on the Bronze Age. But I think it's safe to say that we all like comics that fall outside of that era, so why stay away from them? And couldn't "Under Siege" have been published during the Thomas/Buscema/Palmer years of the late Silver Age? I think it would have fit in that period quite well. Over the years we've covered comics from the early Silver Age to almost the turn of the century. Just earlier this evening I slotted a John Buscema-illustrated Hulk short story to run at the beginning of April -- from 1998. You never know what you'll get from us, and that's OK.<br /><br />More <i>Marvel Comics: The Untold Story</i> coming your way tomorrow, and it will be a doozy. As I write in the body of the post, the back half of the book was so dense we are basically just going to break it out as a bunch of Open Forum-type topics. We may still be writing comments on tomorrow's post this time next month!<br /><br />Be well,<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-71520349623758105112013-02-04T17:13:48.830-06:002013-02-04T17:13:48.830-06:00gee, I personally think "Unlimited Vision&quo...gee, I personally think "Unlimited Vision" was pretty good. Heck, the issues with Spidey trying to join were fun, too. Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-20407439953018562102013-02-04T17:10:37.640-06:002013-02-04T17:10:37.640-06:00Hi Doug,
You could always do longer storylines by ...Hi Doug,<br />You could always do longer storylines by covering more than one issue at a time. like today you basically summed up 2 issues for us. Then you wouldn't have to worry about going on for months at a time!<br /><br />I was pleasantly surprised to see this story covered by you at all, so I'll take what I can get. I thought this blog leaned mostly towards the early Bronze Age. Anyway, I enjoy all of the posts whether i care for a particular story/artist/title or not.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-79084671048850459782013-02-04T17:05:27.983-06:002013-02-04T17:05:27.983-06:00dicecipher and mr. oyola --
Welcome!
In the Brav...dicecipher and mr. oyola --<br /><br />Welcome!<br /><br />In the Brave and the Bold post that ran Saturday, Neal Adams also used that multi-exposure effect on the Flash a few times. I generally really like it, no matter the artist. It's like getting more bang for my buck in a given panel.<br /><br />mr. oyola -- glad you liked today's fare. Having re-read the succeeding three issues just recently for these reviews, I hope you'll stick around for what we all know is a great story. <br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-55652182046339886602013-02-04T15:47:29.161-06:002013-02-04T15:47:29.161-06:00This is from back in the days when I still relied ...This is from back in the days when I still relied on newsstands and drugstores for the majority of my comics - as such another important source was trading with friends.<br /><br />This was one of those story-arcs that I never got my hands on, but was often discussed and we tried to get out hands on all the issues, but they were closely-guarded and difficult to trade for (who had the money to go buy back issues?)<br /><br />Ten or twelve years later when I'd get back into comics, meeting other comics enthusiasts from other parts of the country, this was still one of the arcs talked about fondly.<br /><br />Thanks for spending time with it. mr. oyolahttp://we-are-in-it.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-18706579510082973892013-02-04T12:06:14.186-06:002013-02-04T12:06:14.186-06:00One of the all-time best stories for the Avengers!...One of the all-time best stories for the Avengers!<br /><br />This is my Captain Marvel (by marvel comics)--I always liked Monica Rambeau, never cared for Mar-Vell. It's a shame they got rid of her and made her give up the name. <br /><br />Re: Blackout's costume, remember he is cuckoo so he probably thinks it looks good. Looks like a reject from Dial H for Hero.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-77242921932326576372013-02-04T12:01:49.687-06:002013-02-04T12:01:49.687-06:00Doug, Karen, no worries on shorter multi-chapter p...Doug, Karen, no worries on shorter multi-chapter posts.<br /><br />Brevity is always preferred anyways. Let our dedicated posters add what they want (but didn't see covered) in comments and you both can respond, ho big whoop.<br /><br />As you both know from previous columns, "We NEVER EVER get sidetracked.."david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-16350194392049897092013-02-04T11:49:03.361-06:002013-02-04T11:49:03.361-06:00John Byrne used the multi-figure a lot when he was...John Byrne used the multi-figure a lot when he was drawing Iron Fist.dicecipherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06165044433515797305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-22743374021812025222013-02-04T10:47:07.908-06:002013-02-04T10:47:07.908-06:00Just to further the "behind the scenes" ...Just to further the "behind the scenes" nature of Karen's and my comments just above, we've in the past discussed reviewing story arcs like <i>The Dark Knight Returns</i>, <i>Crisis on Infinite Earths</i>, and <i>Avengers Forever</i>. As you all know, those are great/interesting/important stories. They are also all monsters in size! So unfortunately we won't be doing much more than talking about them on the BAB.<br /><br />I thoroughly enjoyed doing the 16 weeks of the Side-by-Side posts, but I'd lie if I didn't say I wasn't looking forward to the eventual end of it all.<br /><br />I'd mentioned earlier that when our "vacation" ended we had almost 45 posts in the queue, some of the dates stretching to late March. That was the point of taking the time off -- to recharge creatively. I don't know how you all felt about being in charge of the discussion-based posts over those 20 days, but it can be a challenge. Karen was teasing me as I began to craft posts in that genre for the days after our return - "what are you going to do if someone takes your topic in January?" Well, luckily it didn't happen, so I didn't waste my time.<br /><br />Rest assured that we have your best interests at heart, and that this is still a labor of love. We'd just like to keep the focus on "love" and not "labor", if you know what we mean.<br /><br />Thanks for reading and participating each day. The comments section is sort of like our own "letters page".<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-85644612798339320872013-02-04T10:17:57.882-06:002013-02-04T10:17:57.882-06:00Richard --
The panel with Cap that you are lookin...Richard --<br /><br />The panel with Cap that you are looking for is at the end of #277, and it's a great scene.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-53336689342575152272013-02-04T10:15:04.670-06:002013-02-04T10:15:04.670-06:00As I'm about to hit "publish your comment...As I'm about to hit "publish your comment", I see that my partner beat me to it. I'll publish it anyway.<br /><br />Perhaps Karen and I should choose shorter, much more definitely bound, stories in the future. I was personally not interested in spending eight weeks on this particular arc, good as it is; Karen and I each have all of the issues involved and did have conversation about where to begin. It was my suggestion to start on #274. It was my hope with the lengthy summary of #273 that anyone who'd not previously read the story could be "up to speed" for the main issues of the arc.<br /><br />In March we have four #1 issues scheduled for review. After that, we'll need to reconsider some of the other ideas we've had. I guess continuity does that to people. No wonder Marvel from time to time mandated done-in-ones.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-25164474420853929852013-02-04T09:43:33.695-06:002013-02-04T09:43:33.695-06:00We did debate where to start this review, and whil...We did debate where to start this review, and while I don't recall the specifics, I know that I personally did not want to do a 7 or 8 issue long review. It would spread out over two months and to be honest, it's difficult to sustain one's enthusiasm that long, or at least my enthusiasm that long. We've mentioned before that doing reviews typically take us several hours of time, as we usually read each issue more than once, do a draft review, then play off each others comments, rewrite,etc. So we can only handle one -occasionally two -in a week. So I'm more than willing to take any blame for not wanting to do more than four issues and for starting this review with 274. But like Doug said, I think by the time we get to 275, it won't matter.<br /><br />Karen Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-5315933506196718962013-02-04T09:37:38.105-06:002013-02-04T09:37:38.105-06:00All, regarding Palmer's inks.
Absolutely righ...All, regarding Palmer's inks.<br /><br />Absolutely right, my goof (totally) ~ It really is Palmer you see. I would have preferred Sinnott over Palmer's inks, but that's just personal choice. Initially the Buscema/Palmer team was a true-blue GODSEND (frankly any improvement was welcomed..), later it seemed more and more Palmer, which also got tiring.<br /><br />I never was a fan of Monica at all, but under Stern, she became tolerable, actually acquiring a personality. <br /><br />Dane as Knight bland..? To me, he just seemed like the Avenger's Nighthawk. He provided a stable entity to the group for Jan along side Cap and Monica, balancing Namor and Herc. Yes, I agree Namor was a bright spot WAY too brief.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-38992135390739650732013-02-04T09:22:03.888-06:002013-02-04T09:22:03.888-06:00Doug, the hardcover, which I now have, contains is...Doug, the hardcover, which I now have, contains issues 270-277. I think that earlier paperback edition leaves out issue #272.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-87602206395294882012013-02-04T09:16:46.279-06:002013-02-04T09:16:46.279-06:00Doug & Karen,
I realize you guys must have pu...Doug & Karen,<br /><br />I realize you guys must have put a lot of work into this -- Thanks! -- but I think #273 would have been a better starting point.<br /><br />The lead-in to this story goes even further back. It think it started with #270, certainly #271, which starts the Wasp/Paladin/Black Knight plot thread. There was also a cross-over in Amazing Spider-Man #283. This was one epic tale. I can understand your desire to keep it to a reasonable length though.<br /><br />This was the last great run of the Avengers and as far as I am concerned the last hurrah of the Bronze Age. So thanks again for doing it.<br /><br />This is not my favorite Avengers line-up though. I was never much of a fan of the Black Knight. He was too bland. He just lacked ... something. <br /><br />Nor did I much care for this Captain Marvel. The name was wrong - they should have come up with something that better, uhh, reflected her light powers, which were far too vaguely defined anyway. She lacked personality too. I did like her costume though.<br /><br />Hercules was great fun during this run though. I'm sorry that the Sub-Mariner had such a short run as an Avenger too. They made a nice pair. Maybe they decided to drop Namor because he was too similar to Hercules. (Another super-strong outsider with the arrogant and entitled attitude of royalty). Still, I would have loved to see him take on the Masters ...<br /><br />Regarding Blackout, I think he was a great character and his wacky costume was part of what I liked about him. You definitely remembered that guy. It was a lot less silly than Electro's costume, I think.<br /><br />Regarding Hercules' beatdown, yeah, it was rough, but I think it was justified in that it showed how evil the baddies were, how far they were willing to go and just how much danger the Avengers were in. I remember thinking at the time that what was so scary about Zemo's plan was how simple it was: assemble enough super-powered thugs to take down the Avengers, then pick them off, one-by-one. It was surprising it hadn't been done before.Inkstained Wretchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-84863552998339405042013-02-04T09:15:24.245-06:002013-02-04T09:15:24.245-06:00Also – somewhere around here, isn’t there a rather...Also – somewhere around here, isn’t there a rather moving bit where Cap falls on his knees in the destroyed mansion mourning the loss of his baseball cards because they are one of the last things he brought back from the past with him?<br /><br />Did anyone else think Whedon was referencing that with Clark Gregg in the movie? <br /><br />Richard<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-46771664581408323772013-02-04T09:11:56.684-06:002013-02-04T09:11:56.684-06:00I agree this is substantially more Palmer than Bus...I agree this is substantially more Palmer than Buscema – there’s a softness and a flow, particularly to the faces, which is pure Palmer. That diving board panel looks like his work to me. Doug, where you reference artists on Daredevil....I suspect that Palmer is largely responsible for that too, bearing in mind that pre-Miller, the signature art of DD was Colan/Palmer. Are we seriously complaining that this is too much Palmer at the expense of Buscema? Talk about an embarrassment of riches. <br /><br /><br />I disagree about the violence meted out against Herc, purely on the grounds that the following story has Zeus, no less, personally punishing the Avengers because his son took such a battering. Therefore, there really has to be such a battering. It can’t happen off camera. At the end of this issue, we’re supposed to believe that the Masters may have killed a demi-god, so I for one would have needed more than a couple of slaps round the face. <br /><br />I like the fact that (with a couple of exceptions) these are all old school mostly silver age baddies who would genuinely have serious grudges against various Avengers. I like the fact that Zemo is proper Zemo, with a lot of gloating, but not too much mwa-ha-ha-ha pantomime villainy (you know what I mean by a pantomime over there, right?). <br /><br />Regarding Captain Marvel, the problem with cosmically powered up heroes is that you keep having to come up with new kinds of Kryptonite. I thought Blackout was a good and credible way of neutralising her without ridiculous contrivance. <br /><br />To really appreciate the greatness of these issues, you need to read the first 300 issues of Avengers in one go (which I did a couple of years ago). There is almost no drop in quality for the first 200 issues, then almost no recognisable quality for the next 54. It falls off a cliff into the sea. When this Stern –Buscema – Palmer run starts, you practically get the bends coming back up so fast. It’s not just a return to quality and form, but a conscious & deliberate return to the art, characterisation and plotting that made the Avengers so good for the first 17 years. <br /><br />Richard<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-56394722524524029192013-02-04T08:34:52.402-06:002013-02-04T08:34:52.402-06:00This is absolutely my favorite Avengers story arc ...This is absolutely my favorite Avengers story arc ever. The villains seem so dangerous and the odds so overwhelming. The characterization of the heroes and villains is just perfect. This isn't a mindless smash-'em-up, but a complex drama in which all the pieces fit perfectly.<br /><br />One of my favorite aspects of this storyline is that Zemo actually has a plan. And not some half-baked conquer-the-world scheme, but an honest-to-goodness plan to defeat the Avengers. And it works. <br /><br />Totally agree with Edo's assessment of Roger Stern as one of the all-time greats of the genre. Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-84824969862696360782013-02-04T08:33:59.394-06:002013-02-04T08:33:59.394-06:00Edo, Karen and I discussed the length of the revie...Edo, Karen and I discussed the length of the review and decided quite arbitrarily that since February has four Mondays we'd just do the last four issues of the storyline. The tpb indeed has five issues in it -- not sure of the recently-released Marvel Premiere Hardcover.<br /><br />So apologies for not including art or our typical tandem comments on #273. Hopefully by the time we're into #275 next week it won't even be noticeable.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-13267615248651204822013-02-04T08:18:38.483-06:002013-02-04T08:18:38.483-06:00I'm actually a bit surprised that you started ...I'm actually a bit surprised that you started with this issue and not the preceding one - just the fact that you need such a lengthy summary of #273 indicates that it's the natural starting point for the story.<br />Otherwise, great write-up. "Under Siege" is indeed a great story, and each individual chapter is wonderfully written - the pacing, build-up and characterization are perfect. Over the past few weeks, I've read the entire last part of Stern's run on Avengers, from issues #267 to #285, and it just cements my view of Roger Stern as one of the best super-hero comics writers ever.<br />As for the art, I really like it. It's hardly typical of John Buscema, in that it's easy to see he was just doing the layouts while Tom Palmer's finishes are often overpowering. However, it creates a distinct look that seems perfectly suited to these stories.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-88443962780892455682013-02-04T08:13:37.100-06:002013-02-04T08:13:37.100-06:00Interestingly, David, this is during the era where...Interestingly, David, this is during the era where Buscema largely did breakdowns and Tom Palmer did the finishes. I'd certainly be curious, and I have my own ideas, to know how much of what we see is Palmer and how much is Buscema. Having seen many Big John pencil rough samples for sale on eBay over the years, my assumption is that we're getting probably 60% Palmer (at least).<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.com