tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post1029470776726766272..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Under Siege: Avengers 276Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-59704729586097062492013-02-19T15:35:26.877-06:002013-02-19T15:35:26.877-06:00LOL--I wouldn't worry, HB, I don't seem to...LOL--I wouldn't worry, HB, I don't seem to have the ear of these super-villains. (At least if Zemo's plunge from the roof of Avengers Mansion is any indication!)Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-44900951407535945232013-02-19T05:13:38.194-06:002013-02-19T05:13:38.194-06:00Uhm. . .ComicsFan?
You're, uh, AWFULLY comfort...Uhm. . .ComicsFan?<br />You're, uh, AWFULLY comfortable with that "Five Steps to Successful Supervillainry" mindset. Should we be keepin' an eye you-? Alerting the U.N.? Or perhaps the media?<br /><br />Holy cow-- that meteor in Russia! That was YOU'RE doing, wasn't it-??!<br />Ohhhh, this is just chilling. . . chilling! Right here in our very midst-!<br /><br />HB (headin' for the bomb shelter. . . )Humanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63999450311801714182013-02-18T18:55:50.764-06:002013-02-18T18:55:50.764-06:00Part of what makes this saga so memorable is that ...Part of what makes this saga so memorable is that the Masters of Evil have executed their plan so <i>well</i>. They make for a formidable force against the Avengers--and Zemo has planned this operation by the numbers and made use of his forces proficiently. He also made excellent use of the intelligence he gathered, step-by-step (e.g., Hercules), which enabled him to predict the Avengers' actions and adjust his timetable accordingly. Were it not for <a href="http://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2012/12/like-father-like-son.html" rel="nofollow">his personal vendetta</a> against Cap, he might have simply issued orders to kill the captured Avengers outright, ransack and destroy the mansion, and pick off the remaining Avengers as efficiently as he did the active members. His mistake was in underestimating the Wasp and leaving her free to marshal her forces--and of course he couldn't have predicted Captain Marvel's escape.<br /><br />The earlier Masters of Evil group had its own plan as well as the power to back it up, allowing them as well to capture the Avengers and come within a hairsbreadth of victory--but again, its leader <a href="http://peerlesspower.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-spy-who-served-me.html" rel="nofollow">had his own agenda</a> and pretty much threw the group to the wolves when things started to go bad. There's really nothing wrong with the Masters of Evil--a really cool group of villains, IMO--that couldn't be fixed by its leader keeping an eye on the finish line. Each of them--including Egghead, with his own group later--seems to forget that victory <i>and</i> vengeance can go hand-in-hand.<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-72971425460709945052013-02-18T18:52:14.727-06:002013-02-18T18:52:14.727-06:00Agreeing with Bruce on both counts here..
Having ...Agreeing with Bruce on both counts here..<br /><br />Having just gotten back into collecting a few titles after a decade long absence, I didn't have much confidence in 'current storylines' back when this came out, but it ended up quickly becoming my fav.. <br /><br />Shame it wasn't to last.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63926436732479175872013-02-18T15:30:38.863-06:002013-02-18T15:30:38.863-06:00No trying to steer the thread in a different direc...No trying to steer the thread in a different direction, but I personally disagree with William re: the Busiek/Perez Avengers. To me, that was the last great Avengers run - and on par with anything from the Silver and Bronze ages.<br /><br />Another great aspect of the "Under Siege" epic is that it segued into another great storyline, where Zeus blames the team for the injuries Hercules suffered at the hands of the Masters of Evil. Needless to say, The Avengers was on my "must-buy" list during this period!Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63034427345550179822013-02-18T15:04:12.940-06:002013-02-18T15:04:12.940-06:00I would add Nights of Wundagore to that list of Av...I would add Nights of Wundagore to that list of Avengers sagas, as one of the shorter ones - although in fact issues 181-182 were actually sort of a prologue, so the whole thing is a respectable 5 issues. Also, just a few issues after Under Siege, the Assault on Olympus arc began - also quite an epic story (and, unfortunately, Stern's last on the title).Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-88797332756290686762013-02-18T14:29:35.603-06:002013-02-18T14:29:35.603-06:00This One would take Doc Druid over Mantis any day....This One would take Doc Druid over Mantis any day. Aside from an ugly costume, This One found Doc Druid enjoyable and an interesting set of abilities to contrast with the other Avengera. This One seems to recall Doc Druid foing bad after Stern was thrown off the Avengers.<br />What might have been, wonders This One!Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-90763201495297006182013-02-18T14:04:07.644-06:002013-02-18T14:04:07.644-06:00Gah! David, I stand corrected!
Man, I thought th...Gah! David, I stand corrected!<br /><br />Man, I thought there was a gap there!<br /><br />And hey, even though it was only a 4-parter, the Bride of Ultron should be on the list as well.<br /><br />Thanks, sir!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-77636904964259652272013-02-18T13:55:34.926-06:002013-02-18T13:55:34.926-06:00By the way, Doug, you DID forget the 'summer o...By the way, Doug, you DID forget the 'summer of '73'...?<br /><br />Yes, the Avengers/Defenders Clash.<br /><br />Probably my favorite of 'em all.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-43954697773514431472013-02-18T13:53:47.230-06:002013-02-18T13:53:47.230-06:00Great column today. Doug, I'll see your list o...Great column today. Doug, I'll see your list of great sagas, and raise you.. this cover.<br /><br />Honestly it should be ranked in the Top Ten Avengers covers. It really screams out 'the tide has turned'.. No word balloons (another hallmark of the Stern/Buscema/Palmer tenure..), nothing, just a stellar cover. <br /><br />As for the story this issue, I remembered I was quite relieved when Thor made his entrance. Over-all, just a well chaptered out tale, probably better executed than most of the other ones you listed Doug. Not too long, no other artists thrown in (like the KS War..), just a well-done story.<br /><br />I remember scratchin' my head about Druid... Just couldn't understand WHY there needed to be a silly character like him, almost the 'token jerk'. Mantis I enjoyed, Moondragon was tolerable most times. Druid..?? Eh.<br />david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-86671859774228950462013-02-18T12:06:29.178-06:002013-02-18T12:06:29.178-06:00Yep, yep-- I couldn't stand Doc Druid either, ...Yep, yep-- I couldn't stand Doc Druid either, but in retrospect, I think that qualifies as a "Mission Accomplished" for Roger Stern. There really seems to be a solid Avengers tradition of having at least one unlikable hero on the team, and that surely cannot be by accident. Off the top of my head: The Hulk, Quicksilver, Mantis, Moondragon, Dr. Druid, and Jack of Hearts. As opposed to being written badly, these characters seemed to have been purposely written as being folks that you'd rather not have lunch with. Essence of drama is conflict, right? <br /><br />However, I don't think I ever recognized this device or convention until I read and considered the Severus Snape character in the Harry Potter series. An example, in the extreme, of a thoroughly unpleasant, unlikable, bloody-minded SOB. . . who was without question a full-blown hero- undeniably a "good-guy".<br /><br />Now, unfortunately, Marvel couldn't leave that lesson well-enough alone, and most of the characters above went fully over to the dark side sooner or later. . . 'cause a writer just couldn't resist. . . which makes those characters far less interesting and complex.<br /><br />A bit of tangent there, sorry-- just a couple o' cents. . . <br /><br />HBhumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-12306341448849318962013-02-18T11:10:18.523-06:002013-02-18T11:10:18.523-06:00William --
I think it's the scope of the &quo...William --<br /><br />I think it's the scope of the "classic" Avengers stories that may set them apart from other stories within the series, or other important stories from other series. Now, you could of course argue that Fantastic Four was just one long space opera from the introduction of the Inhumans through the second Galactus story (Annuals included), but the Avengers seems marked by several long epics (with good stuff sprinkled throughout in between):<br /><br />Kree/Skrull War<br />Celestial Madonna<br />Serpent Crown/Kang<br />Korvac Saga<br />Under Siege<br /><br />For my money, those are the "classics". Yes, there are other great stories that are shorter in length, but the five I listed above are for me the mark of how great the Avengers were in the Bronze Age (and agreeably just beyond).<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-58754641892720824882013-02-18T11:01:35.195-06:002013-02-18T11:01:35.195-06:00To me, "Under Siege" was one of the last...To me, "Under Siege" was one of the last great Avengers stories ever done. I can't really find anything after it that I would consider a true classic. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Busiek and Perez tried to revive the Avengers a few years back, but I thought they really dropped the ball. The art was great, of course, but I thought Busiek went a little off the reservation with the writing, IMO.<br /><br />Anyway, back to this story. I really loved this one because I love the Masters of Evil. (How could you not love a group that would call THEMSELVES evil)? I had a chance to pick up the trade paperback a few years ago at Megacon in Orlando, for 50% Off (about $8.00) but I had just reread the story a couple of weeks before that, so I passed on the trade. I really regret that decision because it's a book I'd like to own now, and the collected volumes go for a pretty penny these days. Even the recently released hardcover. Oh well, you live and learn I guess.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988016825582035390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-28945992699056377322013-02-18T10:18:16.912-06:002013-02-18T10:18:16.912-06:00That would be Valkyrie kicking fannies, not conjun...That would be Valkyrie kicking fannies, not conjunctions as previously stated.<br /><br />Mind or fingers -- which to blame?<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-80335947976055109422013-02-18T10:16:52.349-06:002013-02-18T10:16:52.349-06:00Count me among the anti-sword wielders as having a...Count me among the anti-sword wielders as having a viable power. Good thing Valkyrie was able to kick some but without Dragonfang.<br /><br />And yes, I know Druid was an able plot device. Let's just say the characterization worked on me, because I just found him a "love to hate" sort of guy. Even here, when he's saving the day (and next issue) he's quite pompous. But I do like the nod to Marvel's earliest Silver Age "hero". It just took Stan and Jack another couple of months to get rolling.<br /><br />dbutler, in regard to the poll I cut it off at 1985, hence the omission of the Doctor. You know I'd have voted for him had I included him (I did vote for Moondragon, and again -- she basically serves the same plot purposes as Druid. Who can forget that two issue lecture she gave Thor?).<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-23241745689294276292013-02-18T09:08:06.372-06:002013-02-18T09:08:06.372-06:00I did a very brief review of Dr. Druid's first...I did a very brief review of Dr. Druid's first appearance (although he was Dr. Droom back then) in this post (http://bronzeagebabies.blogspot.com/2010/01/bab-two-in-one-weird-and-wonderful-and.html), where I reviewed Weird Wonder Tales 19, a reprint of Amazing Adventures 1. It was a Lee/Ditko production and pretty much a dry run for Dr. Strange. Not sure when and where he was first brought back though, perhaps it was in the Avengers. While Dr. Druid is not a great character unto himself, he does add some fuel to the fire, much like Mantis or Moondragon.<br /><br />I agree with Inkstained, sword wielding heroes never made any sense to me, as they always have to use the flat of their blade. Why not just get a mace then? On the other hand, a sword wielding villain makes perfect sense! But I have always dug the Knight's costume. Great colors and design.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-4486561414323167082013-02-18T08:52:19.628-06:002013-02-18T08:52:19.628-06:00Dr. Druid... I am on record saying he was a dud to...Dr. Druid... I am on record saying he was a dud too. Not changing that now either, though Bruce makes a good point about him as a plot device. <br /><br />If I recall correctly he was a character from the very earliest Lee/Kirby anthology title days, who made occasional modern appearances for nostalgia's sake. I recall he appeared in Avengers #225-226, the issues that revived the Black Knight as well.<br /><br />The Black Knight is another one I'm not overly fond of, though I had a hard time figuring out why. I think I just realized what it is: Having a character with a sword who cannot actually slash or cut an opponent is kind of pointless. I mean, this isn't a Conan title. The Black Knight cannot actually, say, lop off a villain's head.<br /><br />The Shroud, as I recall, had the "darkforce" powers at least as early as the original West Coast Avengers mini-series. Not sure when the change was made though. Now there would have been a good character to have as an avenger instead of Dr. Druid...<br /><br />Thor's appearance here was truly a "The cavalry has arrived" moment. Did Thor's brittle bones really happen at this point? I'm not sure but I think that happened a little after.<br /><br />Hyde was originally a Thor baddie, along with, yes, the Cobra because "cobra powers' are what you want when taking on the Asgardian God of Thunder (ah, the Silver Age!). Interestingly, between the first and second volumes of the Marvel Universe Hyde's strength level was drastically upgraded. He went from being able to lift 11 tons to 50 tons. Still didn't help him much against Thor though...<br /><br />I have to say I really dig the art of these issues. I think there have been some complaints that Palmer's inks were excessive, but I like the result here. It reminds me a lot of Jerry Ordway's art, which I am a big fan of.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Inkstained Wretchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-51315228272261878032013-02-18T08:13:44.121-06:002013-02-18T08:13:44.121-06:00The scene where Cap & Black Knight have to wat...The scene where Cap & Black Knight have to watch Jarvis getting brutalized is chilling - and so effective in selling this story. <br /><br />I really enjoy how Roger Stern incorporated Dr. Druid into the Avengers. Druid is a pompous, conniving jerk and adding him to the team created some intriguing internal tension. No, he isn't likable - but I think that's the point!Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-63901862676750457712013-02-18T07:25:35.538-06:002013-02-18T07:25:35.538-06:00Yeah, washed up Power Man became Power Man/Goliath...Yeah, washed up Power Man became Power Man/Goliath in Iron Man Annual #7 (1984) thanks to some mad scientist for whom he was supposed to work for six months to pay off that debt, but the scientist only got squashed by our ingrate for his troubles. In that issue, written by Bob Harras, it took Iron Man, Wonder Man (who's gone toe-to-toe with Thor as he often reminds us), and Hawkeye to defeat him, and even then it was not through brute force but through trickery. Even more shocking, it was Wonder Man who came up with the plan. Sometimes I think writers forget he was an inventor when he first appeared. <br /><br />Anyway, I, along with Edo Bosnar, didn't mind Dr Druid. I think some people hold it against him that a fat, bald guy is a member of the Avengers. Then there's that little thing about betraying the Avengers, but that comes well after this.<br /><br />Speaking of, I was torn between voting for Moondragon and Tigra in the poll to the left, but decided on Tigra. I didn't like Moondragon, but at least she was interesting. I found Tigra fairly useless, plus I didn't like her personality and he struggle between being human and anmial just didn't capture my interest. It's a good tihng Dr Druid wwasn't on this poll, though!dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-14472821296690412622013-02-18T06:51:01.560-06:002013-02-18T06:51:01.560-06:00Having read the entire last part of Stern's ru...Having read the entire last part of Stern's run on the Avengers for the first time just recently, I have to say I don't mind Dr. Druid here at all. He's not a great character by any stretch of the imagination (and certainly not my favorite), but Stern really put him to good use here and in the following stories. In fact, I think Stern could have taken an entire team of B- and C-listers and turned it into a compelling read.<br />As for the Shroud and the darkforce, I think it was established somewhere in the early '80s (maybe in the Marvel Universe Handbook?) that Darkstar, Cloak, Shroud, and anybody else with 'darkness generating' power was tapping the darkforce dimension.<br />By the way, as cool as that cover is, I always thought there was something a bit comical about it as well. I finally figured out why when I remembered this old Sniffles cartoon:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiZz9m3StxE<br />Go to about 2:52 and I think you'll see what I mean...Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.com