tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post1782307461406612929..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Discuss: X-SpinoffsDoughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-64374454273630081932013-06-25T15:05:35.227-05:002013-06-25T15:05:35.227-05:00But Sal could still pull this off, folks! C'm...But Sal could still pull this off, folks! C'mon-- it's just like the Public Broadcasting pledge drives, where the last dramatic calls pull it off in the 11-1/2th hour!!!<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-55920827352317053732013-06-25T05:44:58.298-05:002013-06-25T05:44:58.298-05:00Wow, two potential upsets of seeded contestants in...Wow, two potential upsets of seeded contestants in the works, here. This is exciting! <br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-72138197092087977352013-06-24T17:21:52.256-05:002013-06-24T17:21:52.256-05:00I almost changed my vote to Starlin today after th...I almost changed my vote to Starlin today after thinking about Dreadstar and looking at his Captain Marvel again. But I pulled out some Savage Swords by Buscema and that tipped the balance back again. <br /><br />I was looking at Wrightson's Frankenstein illustrations again, to add to his side vs Byrne...astounding amount of detail in some of these, with the test tubes and apparatus. Great care in the lighting and inking. Came out in '83, after 7 years, and was an unpaid labour of love for Wrightson that he worked on in between assignments. If it came down to individual works, I don't think Byrne could match these. I still voted Byrne, but now having second thoughts. <br /><br />I'm not really a Sal fan, so that one's easy for me. I think he's good but not great. I'd put the other 7 in the great category. I'd be curious about what everyone thinks are the greatest works by these top 8, or your favorite work by them.Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-71414401444894072602013-06-24T15:26:46.512-05:002013-06-24T15:26:46.512-05:00Karen, I feel your pain: as I pointed out in the c...Karen, I feel your pain: as I pointed out in the comments above (and previously) I was equally torn in the last two brackets involving Sal Buscema: first against Aparo and now Kane.<br />The Buscema/Starlin one is a toughie as well, but I actually went with Starlin - maybe just because I've been reading all of that Captain Marvel stuff lately.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-8572584119815476172013-06-24T14:55:42.443-05:002013-06-24T14:55:42.443-05:00Yeah, you're right Edo-- I definitely don'...Yeah, you're right Edo-- I definitely don't want to come across sounding like I'm down on Gil Kane at all. AND it's a grave injustice to let a discussion of his contributions go by w/out mentioning the bajillion first-rate covers he produced during the bronze age, as well. In a very real way, he was gettin' the books out of spinner racks and into hands. And like I said, if the criteria becomes more best-work vs. best-work (which is a reasonable measure as well), I think the scales might tip Kane's way a smidge. Ohhhhh, it's so tricky.<br /><br />Poor Karen's a-dyin' up there. . . <br /><br />HBhumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-19012876690057503172013-06-24T14:38:41.341-05:002013-06-24T14:38:41.341-05:00The bracket that's killing me right now is Joh...The bracket that's killing me right now is John Buscema vs. Jim Starlin (and I predicted via email to Doug that this decision might occur and would be heart-rending for me). However, based on overall impact in the Bronze Age, I had to go with Buscema...but it absolutely rips me up.Both are huge favorites of mine and having to choose one over the other is painful. But that's what these sort of 'best of' lists are all about, when you come right down to it, making the hard decisions.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-65389167399622657402013-06-24T14:16:51.374-05:002013-06-24T14:16:51.374-05:00HB, while I agree with absolutely everything you&#...HB, while I agree with absolutely everything you've said about Sal (I've been voting for him consistently), I have to put in a few good words for Kane - another big personal favorite.<br />First, I'm not at all mystified that he's doing so well here, since in my opinion his work from the '70s and '80s is far, far better than his work from the Silver Age and earlier (seriously, he's the definition of an artist who got better with age).<br />Second, don't forget that he also handed in some really nice and often highly-praised non-super-hero work: you mentioned Sword of the Atom (super-hero in name only), but there was also stuff like Blackmark, the occasional Conan stories (both in the Barbarian and Savage Sword), John Carter, and that excellent Star Hawks newspaper strip. Also, in the '80s, the more obscure Talos of the Wilderness Sea and Ring of the Nibelung.<br />Third, his early '80s Superman art deserves a special shout-out, both in Action Comics and those two Superman Specials (and DC Comics Presents Annual #3).<br />Alas, all of that is still not enough to get me to vote against Sal. In fact, out of this final 8, there's only one artist left (Byrne) who could prompt me to vote against Sal...Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-42278627175942626882013-06-24T13:14:39.449-05:002013-06-24T13:14:39.449-05:00Yes, Kane over Sal at the moment has me perplexed ...Yes, Kane over Sal at the moment has me perplexed (and nervous again!) as well. I don't see him as being nearly a dominant Bronze Age figure as Sal. And while his best B-Age work (Sword of the Atom, I'm thinking?) might just edge out Sal's best work (Rom? Crossroads Saga in the Hulk? Captain America? Defenders? Geeze- he's always good!), Kane could DEFINITELY turn in some sub-standard efforts (*cough* Marvel Team-Up *cough*), whereas I can't think of a single instance where Sal B turned in a book that looked BAD, y'know? Truly, his mean (his median?)over his career may in fact have been higher than just about anyone else's. So I'm still comfortable giving him the nod on that basis alone.<br /><br />Sheesh-- I feel like him his publicist, these days!<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-3324124921826704652013-06-24T11:04:55.410-05:002013-06-24T11:04:55.410-05:00I agree with you, William. Even Green Lantern, wh...I agree with you, William. Even Green Lantern, who I would most associate with Kane as the premiere artist, loses out to Adams' depiction in the early 1970's.<br /><br />But then, losing out to guys like Johnny Romita and Neal Adams can't be all bad, can it?<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-87576416137674713822013-06-24T10:52:40.040-05:002013-06-24T10:52:40.040-05:00I agree with Karen about Perez and Adams. It's...I agree with Karen about Perez and Adams. It's a tough call, but again, if we are strictly talking Bronze Age, I'd have to give the nod to Perez. His Avengers stuff alone puts him in the running, but when you factor in his work on other titles like New Teen Titans and Fantastic Four, I think Perez comes out on top. In a strictly Bronze Age capacity.<br /><br />I am surprised to see that Gil Kane in now beating Sal Buscema in the poll. Kane is a great artist and he did some awesome work in the Bronze Age, (most notably on Amazing Spider-Man), but Sal was everywhere back then. In fact, you would be hard pressed to name a Marvel comic title in the 70's and 80's that Sal B did not work on. Plus, I consider his Incredible Hulk to be the definitive version of the character. And when I think of Captain America, it's usually Sal's version that comes to mind as well. I can't think of one iconic character that Gil Kane worked on that I would consider the definitive representation.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988016825582035390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-87479602227830196182013-06-24T10:36:42.122-05:002013-06-24T10:36:42.122-05:00What William said. For me, the question is Kirby&#...What William said. For me, the question is Kirby's Bronze age output versus Starlin's, and in that case, I have to go with Starlin. Now obviously it complicated by the fact that Kirby is the grandmaster and has had an influence on practically everyone in these brackets, but even so, based solely on artistic merits, I go with Starlin.<br /><br />I feel the same way with Perez versus Adams. The majority of Adams' impact was felt in the Silver Age. Yes, he was a huge influence on all who came after him. But the sheer artistry and amount of work Perez did, at high levels of quality, in the Bronze Age, makes him the winner of that match up for me. But if you put the two against each other based on their entire bodies of work, I might have to go with Adams. That's a tough one though.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-16793396470883404052013-06-24T07:54:17.310-05:002013-06-24T07:54:17.310-05:00If this was called "Best Comic Book Artist Of...If this was called "Best Comic Book Artist Of All Time" (and not just Best of the "Bronze Age") I think that Jack Kirby would (and should) win that contest, probably hands down. But if we throw out all of the King's Silver Age and Golden Age work, and pretend it doesn't exist, and only judge the work that was done in that 12-15 year period that we call the "Bronze Age", then I believe there is some definite room for debate.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988016825582035390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-88928944788949749182013-06-24T02:37:45.073-05:002013-06-24T02:37:45.073-05:00Starlin versus Kirby.
I'm not looking to fig...Starlin versus Kirby. <br /><br />I'm not looking to fight with anyone at all. But I find it ironic that Starlin of all artists beat out Kirby since his Thanos stuff (which he's mostly famous for during this period) is largely copped from the Fourth World for sure. <br /><br />Starlin is danged fine artist, a good storyteller though I do find him a bit one-note after a while, but compared to the King anyone falls short, Bronze or Silver Ages. <br /><br />Just saying. <br /><br />Rip OffRip Jaggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09936426877024852134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-66820226003378150152013-06-23T21:05:40.603-05:002013-06-23T21:05:40.603-05:00I confess I've never seen Captain Victory. Ho...I confess I've never seen Captain Victory. However, one even later Kirby shout-out would have to be an unpublished splash page he'd done for Destroyer Duck that was reprinted in KIRBY: KING OF COMICS. Just an incredibly dense, layered warehouse/factory shot, w/ the duck working away on something at a table in the center. It's one of those pictures that immediately makes you want to know what's going on in the story. Never saw the light of day. . . and yet clearly shows that the aging giant had retained far more of his artistic brilliance than maybe he was getting credit for even at the time.<br /><br />Geeze-- that Perez/Adams thing is still givin' me the ague. If it included Adams' X-Men run, I'd go w/ him. If it got to the Busiek/Perez Avengers, George would get it. Sheesh. <br /><br />I. . . I still can't decide. . . <br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-10667411029771322882013-06-23T20:07:46.574-05:002013-06-23T20:07:46.574-05:00I have grown to appreciate Gil Kane in my adult ye...I have grown to appreciate Gil Kane in my adult years, but I like realism more than stylism; hence I could never vote for Kane over any of the other artists who remain.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-38995164793839029022013-06-23T18:41:08.678-05:002013-06-23T18:41:08.678-05:00Perez vs Adams is really interesting--how do you d...Perez vs Adams is really interesting--how do you define best penciler? Adams has the unusual perspectives and panels, great faces and sharpness...but Perez has that great appeal and warmth, and solidly constructed figures and compositions. I'd say my head goes with Adams but my heart goes with Perez.<br /><br />I'll go with John Buscema over Starlin for just sheer drawing ability. Buscema seemed to live and breathe drawing, the figures and scenes...although not so much machinery, which I've heard he disliked drawing. Compare Conan by Buscema and Starlin.<br /><br />I'm picking Kane over Sal...I think Kane had such great structure to his figure drawing, the foreshortening, etc. I always return to Sword of the Atom, and Blackmark from 1971 squeezes into the Bronze age as an early experimental graphic novel.<br /><br />Byrne gets my vote over Wrightson, although I'm not as big a fan of Byrne's as many here. If inking was included I'd go with Wrightson, as he's one of those guys who gets into the "fine art" category with his super inking. <br />Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-10007043770765761192013-06-23T16:01:51.543-05:002013-06-23T16:01:51.543-05:00Edo, you caught me wearing my Big Two zombie-glass...Edo, you caught me wearing my Big Two zombie-glasses! Which, honestly, I always wear. I should stretch out a bit, I know...<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-57207629980183187802013-06-23T15:57:34.114-05:002013-06-23T15:57:34.114-05:00I liked the early New Mutants by Bob McLeod. He ha...I liked the early New Mutants by Bob McLeod. He had a great art style penciling/inking at this time, nice covers as well. While I liked Sienkiewicz on Moon Knight, I couldn't get into his New Mutants...felt his art distracted from the story by this point.<br /><br />X-Force, I picked up a couple to see Liefeld's art...he had lots of energy and it seemed like something new was happening. Not a fan of his art now. X-Men, Jim Lee I think is an excellent artist, but I don't necessarily love his comics. I think his X books were impressively drawn and hugely influential on comics of the last 20 years, for better or worse. Perhaps it's the flow of action from panel to panel that is lacking? Something Byrne or Kirby excelled at. <br /><br />Yes, leaving Aparo behind is a crime! Kubert as well, although his inking is a big part of his appeal. The Colan/Kane matchup was interesting, such different styles...I'd sure prefer Colan on Dracula! Kane's got the structure, Colan's got the shadows and mood. Barry Smith's Red Nails would have to be near the top if this were "Best individual comic" art of all time. As mentioned, Mike Zeck had a tough draw...it would've been interesting to see how he'd do against Joe Staton, or Marshall Rogers. I agree with Kirby beating Simonson, when you look at New Gods, Kamandi, the DC art...powerful stuff.Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-56013634844949319682013-06-23T15:20:17.389-05:002013-06-23T15:20:17.389-05:00Funny, to me Sienkiewicz's art is synonymous w...Funny, to me Sienkiewicz's art is synonymous with what made the New Mutants such a great series. <br /><br />Love those covers still.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-5452220295573984772013-06-23T15:14:56.181-05:002013-06-23T15:14:56.181-05:00I liked the early New Mutants by Bob McLeod. He ha...I liked the early New Mutants by Bob McLeod. He had a great art style penciling/inking at this time, nice covers as well. While I liked Sienkiewicz on Moon Knight, I couldn't get into his New Mutants...felt his art distracted from the story by this point.<br /><br />X-Force, I picked up a couple to see Liefeld's art...he had lots of energy and it seemed like something new was happening. Not a fan of his art now. X-Men, Jim Lee I think is an excellent artist, but I don't necessarily love his comics. I think his X books were impressively drawn and hugely influential on comics of the last 20 years, for better or worse. Perhaps it's the flow of action from panel to panel that is lacking? Something Byrne or Kirby excelled at. <br /><br />Yes, leaving Aparo behind is a crime! Kubert as well, although his inking is a big part of his appeal. The Colan/Kane matchup was interesting, such different styles...I'd sure prefer Colan on Dracula! Kane's got the structure, Colan's got the shadows and mood. Barry Smith's Red Nails would have to be near the top if this were "Best individual comic" art of all time. As mentioned, Mike Zeck had a tough draw...it would've been interesting to see how he'd do against Joe Staton, or Marshall Rogers. I agree with Kirby beating Simonson, when you look at New Gods, Kamandi, the DC art...powerful stuff.Garettnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-49631986206824248272013-06-23T15:01:12.881-05:002013-06-23T15:01:12.881-05:00HB, while I agree with you about Kirby's DC wo...HB, while I agree with you about Kirby's DC work in the early '70s being a career high for him (his second stint at Marvel - and I'm talking about the art here - was definitely sub-par for the most part), but I think his last hurrah was his Captain Victory series for Pacific in the early '80s. The art was really nice for about the first 6-7 issues, and the stories were unbridled madcap fun.<br /><br />As for the Adams/Perez match-up, yep, I'm a bit troubled by that as well. I understand why Adams is getting so much love, but I tend to prefer Perez here. I think his work from the mid-70s to mid-80s stacks up well against Adams' output.<br />And Doug, I am shocked to see that your post-1970 Adams list does not include the incredible awesomeness of Ms. Mystic and Skateman! ;)Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-69640061048886708222013-06-23T14:36:48.655-05:002013-06-23T14:36:48.655-05:00Ah, no sweat. Before I did get all high 'n...Ah, no sweat. Before I did get all high 'n' mighty with you, I had to consult Adams' chronology over at the Comic Book Database. After all, it is important when entering smart-arse territory to truly know that of which one wants to be a smart-arse about!!<br /><br />And yes, it is quite a body of work. Would you put Perez's second stint on the Avengers and his New Teen Titans stuff up against Adams?<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-48533506730212130772013-06-23T14:34:00.969-05:002013-06-23T14:34:00.969-05:00BWAHAHAHA!
Ah, thanks Doug. CLEARLY a case of me ...<br />BWAHAHAHA!<br />Ah, thanks Doug. CLEARLY a case of me not having my mind properly wrapped around what works happened when! (I had pretty much lumped all of that as vaguely "oh, between '68 & '70" in my head-- good grief! Could I be more of a rookie??)<br /><br />That body of work right there? Definitely a legitimate challenge to Mr. Perez, although it almost becomes like Jack Kirby, as to my mind he kind of fell off the map very suddenly. <br /><br />I actually have some of those Tarzan novels w/ his cover art!<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-41246249955254986562013-06-23T14:10:33.179-05:002013-06-23T14:10:33.179-05:00I would add that I agree with HB's assessment ...I would add that I agree with HB's assessment of Starlin's improvement throughout the decade. Now, were we to do a "Best Creators" of the Bronze Age, Jim Starlin might very well run away with that. As I've said several times, and I think that David B. might agree with me, I'm not much of an aficionado of Starlin's cosmic epic; that's Karen's domain. However, having looked at almost all of it in preparation for this month's reviews, I would put his 4-year Thanos saga up against any major storyline from any era. It truly is epic.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-44770635994237084072013-06-23T13:59:17.878-05:002013-06-23T13:59:17.878-05:00HB --
Not to be a smart-arse, but Adams output po...HB --<br /><br />Not to be a smart-arse, but Adams output post-1970 mainly consists of --<br /><br />Kree/Skrull War<br />GL/GA "Hard Traveling Heroes"<br />Batman, allied again with O'Neil<br />Inhumans in Amazing Adventures<br />Thor -- short stint<br />Numerous covers for comics, magazines, and prose paperbacks (notably Tarzan)<br /><br />That's all.<br /><br />:)<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.com