tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post7788719473275262097..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: BAB Classic: Nice Job, Hank! Bride of Ultron Part 2Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-51434572496405816262016-01-08T19:33:53.840-06:002016-01-08T19:33:53.840-06:00I want to take issue with Karen's statement &q...I want to take issue with Karen's statement "I still think this is primarily due to the thought process over at DC at the time, where Shooter had been weaned..." Regardless of the editorial philosophies in vogues at DC at the time, I disagree. This two-part story is part of a deliberately spaced out four-part story, and is in the midst of a much larger story (the disappearing Avengers, and the timely appearances of Thor.) The sloppy transition from the end of 162 to 163 and beyond is squarely on Shooter as writer and Goodwin as editor. Not only is Hank raving at the end of 162, but other Hank, Cap, Wanda, and Vision are pronounced dead at the beginning! All of their fates, save The Vision's, are resolved in a couple of balloons on the first pages of 163. (Remember the great reveal of The Vision in the Count Nefaria story?) I don't know, but I suspect, that 163 may have been an inventory story. Why it was run, I won't guess. It was on sale at the same time as Champions #15 (thanks Amazing Mike!). For this issue to have any impact on the Champs own book seems like a very desperate attempt, as The Champions was cancelled only two issues later. The dreaded Deadline Doom was as much a threat to the Avengers as Ultron and Kang!Ward Hill Terrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-47022033343007972582016-01-07T22:26:34.275-06:002016-01-07T22:26:34.275-06:00Part 2 of one of the best Avengers stories ever. A...Part 2 of one of the best Avengers stories ever. A true classic. Probably my favorite of all-time (tied with the Super Count Nefaria story a short time later).<br /><br />However, like some other commenters on here, I was confused when I picked up the issue after this one, and there was no mention of what had transpired in this story. Shooter did pick it up the thread a few issues later, but it had lost some of the impact by then. And I don't think we ever really did find out what happened to Hank, why he went crazy, and how he got back to normal.Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16988016825582035390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-15806110757822232322016-01-07T15:31:22.131-06:002016-01-07T15:31:22.131-06:00Hiya,
And when I used the word 'gestalt' ...Hiya,<br /><br />And when I used the word 'gestalt' back in school when I was a theater minor I was greeted with glazed, confused expressions.<br /><br />Seriously thou HB, cooperative arts such as theater, cinema, television, and comics benefit from the merging of talents and even from the conflicts of the creatives involved. Look at Clairmont and Byrnes. They produced some of the finest comics of the Bronze Age before their association splintered. <br /><br />Now some have argued that neither reached the pinnacles later in their career as they had early on. There might be some truth to this. But the sniping that took place between them in their books, specifically X-Men and Fantastic Four, seemed to provoke both to try harder.<br /><br />It was also very amusing if you knew what was going on behind the scenes.<br /><br />Seeya,<br /><br />pfgaviganpfgaviganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446007678336988354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-90040703727471419972016-01-07T14:53:17.102-06:002016-01-07T14:53:17.102-06:00We are of a mind on that exact point about the ges...We are of a mind on that exact point about the gestalt nature of comics,PFG. They exist in the worlds of both literature and graphic art, really, but are created in a way that is much more like film or theater or even music. Soooo many folks contribute their unique gifts to the eventual success (or failure, I suppose) of every issue. Y'know, even Orson Wells didn't play every role in Citizen Kane-- even the most "one man band" of all films had a solid company of artists and professionals adding their own life to it. . .<br /><br />[I use the word "gestalt" every now and then at production meetings-- sometimes the headier egos have a bit of trouble trusting in the artistic fortitude and legitimacy of the design group as a whole. . . ]<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-3404842378432293032016-01-07T14:20:10.869-06:002016-01-07T14:20:10.869-06:00Hiya,
Hey HB, who knows what was going on at the ...Hiya,<br /><br />Hey HB, who knows what was going on at the Marvel offices then?? I went over to the wiki site and went through the next twenty issues. The artist position became a revolving door with Perez, Byrne and others rendering various story lines. Even Shooter wasn't necessarily a consistent. Maybe if there had been more behind the scenes stability he might have been able to resolve things on page.<br /><br />We always wonder why certain things happen or don't happen. Sometimes I think even creators must look back with regret and the thought of " if only I had had the chance!" I believe it's important to remember that comics are a cooperative art form, a gestalt of many hands and talents. Sometimes singling out an individual, any individual, for praise or condemnation might be unwarranted.<br /><br />Seeya<br /><br />pfgaviganpfgaviganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446007678336988354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-73838472809664685342016-01-07T13:56:51.300-06:002016-01-07T13:56:51.300-06:00Ah, thanks edo-- then that still gives me reason t...Ah, thanks edo-- then that still gives me reason to hold onto my Editorial Mandate theory for awhile, eh? In fact, maybe Shooter's borderline-absurd non-acknowledgement of Hank's mental state was in itself his bit o' stickin'-it-to-the-(editorial)man-?<br /><br />Yeah, I'm keepin' the conspiracy theory explanation!<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-34545071271629473632016-01-07T13:40:41.088-06:002016-01-07T13:40:41.088-06:00Yep, I really like this story alot, despite the la...Yep, I really like this story alot, despite the lack of resolution (or rather apparently off-panel resolution) of Hank's mental breakdown. Just by itself it's a well-written, beautifully drawn story, which, as PFG notes, builds on previous continuity in an interesting and creative way.<br />By the way, HB, Shooter was not the editor of this book - the credits in my reprint edition say that Archie Goodwin was the editor, although there's no indication of who the editor-in-chief was (although since the book came out in '77, it still couldn't have been Shooter, because he only became EiC in 1978; in fact, I think Goodwin was EiC at the time).Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-3780340193262570102016-01-07T12:58:44.174-06:002016-01-07T12:58:44.174-06:00Hiya,
I've been thinking about these issues s...Hiya,<br /><br />I've been thinking about these issues since the previous column appeared. They appeared on the news stand at just about the same time I was getting ready to give up on comics. That weird burst of energy during the early Seventies, where anything, everything, and anyone could get a book at the Big Two had pretty much played itself out. The more recent books seemed more . . . standardized to me. Not bad, mind you, but somehow more of the same. Outside of X-Men, which at the time was a single comic that had only recently received monthly printing status, there wasn't much that got me going.<br /><br />Then this thing showed up.<br /><br />Sure, Shooter had been writing the Avengers, on and off, for a while. But Perez seemed to get where he wanted the story to go, perhaps even actively collaborated with him. These things were interesting and I had the feeling that maybe someone was putting a little more effort into it than was normal.<br /><br />I was thinking about going into a long rant about the state of the Hank/Janet relationship up to this point, but maybe that's a better subject for a stand alone column. But the main thing is that what happened in this story was a clear example of a creative team looking at what had been done before with the characters and, unlike Kirby on Captain America and Black Panther, choosing to build on it rather than ignore it.<br /><br />I think the Shooter/Perez approach worked much better.<br /><br />Seeya<br /><br />pfgaviganpfgaviganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446007678336988354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-60807044571164111542016-01-07T10:48:32.416-06:002016-01-07T10:48:32.416-06:00Love these BAB "reprints"!
I'm with...Love these BAB "reprints"!<br /><br />I'm with the initial wave of responses about not liking these unresolved subplots or plotlines handled "offstage". For me, what happens in that last scene needs to be carried forward to future issues or it should have been replaced with the Avengers using the Bat Mind Restorer or something. One of the things that made me a Marvel zuvembie at that time was continuity and character development. The handling of Hank's mind wipe seemed to fly in the face of that and, looking back, probably contributed to my leaving comics altogether a few years later.<br /><br />Somewhat related to this topic, but leaving a similar bad taste, was the return of Jack Kirby around this time. When he took over Captain America and then the Black Panther he totally ignored what had gone on in Engelhart's Cap run and McGregor's Jungle Action which just left me totally cold.<br /><br />But, not to be a total downer, I did enjoy this comic and loved Perez' art during this run.<br /><br />Tom<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-55252999494708175202016-01-07T10:36:16.876-06:002016-01-07T10:36:16.876-06:00Now, was Shooter the editor for this book as well ...Now, was Shooter the editor for this book as well at that time? I've lost track of that sort of thing. If not, I wonder-- could there have been an editorial mandate to not follow through with such an unsettling subplot for Hank at that time? Or maybe even Shooter had second thoughts about what a downer pursuing that thread might be to faithful fans? I mean-- it is indeed personally quite ugly and not actually enjoyable to witness. Certainly justifiable and interesting-- but maybe not a ratings-grabber, as it were?<br /><br />Golly I sure like George Perez. I've a December birthday, and I'm just now receiving the "gifts" I ordered for myself from the Amazon Gift Card my Mom thoughtfully provided--- and Vol 1 of The New Teen Titans TPB arrived yesterday--- and right there is George's particular genius on display-- his ability to bring an attractive, accessible, personal humanity to each character that he draws. In spite of their exaggerated proportions, you <i>believe </i> that they're people, y'know? This Ultron arc is, I think, a great example of that. It's an instance where you almost come away with the sense that you've watched a movie rather than read a comic.<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-33641705446769876162012-11-21T00:26:19.173-06:002012-11-21T00:26:19.173-06:00I really love this issue. This is the one where th...I really love this issue. This is the one where the Avengers (even Thor)feel that they are quite likely going to die. I remember really feeling the threat. This was also my first exposure to Ultron. The colors are excellent in this issue as well. Morgan B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00861835039462479694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-10710866174434037882010-08-11T10:37:10.950-05:002010-08-11T10:37:10.950-05:00Rick, Fred, thanks for your thoughts. This was a s...Rick, Fred, thanks for your thoughts. This was a storyline that Doug and I had talked about reviewing for some time. It obviously resonated with a lot of fans. But the lack of resolution to Hank's mental breakdown was just a glaring problem. I still think this is primarily due to the thought process over at DC at the time, where Shooter had been weaned, so to speak. Fred's example about if Stan had solved Hank's growth problem "off-stage" is very applicable here. It was one of those things where you thought you must have missed an issue!<br /><br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-11951196663460840342010-08-09T23:37:54.545-05:002010-08-09T23:37:54.545-05:00This was a great story, with wonderful art by Geor...This was a great story, with wonderful art by George Perez, but Shooter really failed to adequately follow it up. For me, it's one thing to leave a dangling subplot, irritating as that is, but Pym's psychological breakdown was a major aspect of this story and Shooter really should have shown Pym regaining his sanity rather than just having him pop up again supposedly back to "normal". It'd be as if Stan, having made a big to do about Pym getting stuck at 10 feet at the end of one issue, had him changing sizes from miniscule to mountainous again in the next with no mention of his situation in the previous mag. Just one of those things that irritated me about Shooter's writing. Of course, Shooter wasn't the only writer guilty of inadequate (or no) follow-up to a highly dramatic situation. I really hated it when Byrne killed off Guardian in one issue of Alpha Flight and then, unless my memory is faulty, made no reference to it all in the next several issues, after which I gave up on the series.Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-57971711996582295002010-08-09T11:07:52.726-05:002010-08-09T11:07:52.726-05:00My first Avenger issues I picked up as a kid were ...My first Avenger issues I picked up as a kid were Avengers 139-141, 148 and 161,162.<br />161-162 really blew me away at that time. The serious tone, the great art work by Perez and Ultron as the ultimate antagonist to the Avengers just made it a fantastic read. I'll have to say I still think those two issues stand up to any other Avengers two-part stories.<br />Thanks for the great review and nostalgia brought with it.Rick J.noreply@blogger.com