tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post8956396326298643045..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: True of False: Thor Is More Interesting When Written as a Cosmic HeroDoughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-4385355023511847262013-08-14T03:25:01.274-05:002013-08-14T03:25:01.274-05:00Both true and false. I think Thor works best when ...Both true and false. I think Thor works best when alternating between cosmic/space/Asgard adventures and Earth-bound adventures. <br /><br />But by far the former are the more enjoyable. Just about all the best Thor stories took place in Asgard or in some space setting - all my favorites. The Hercules team-up going to battle Pluto in the Underworld, the first Rigellian/Colonizers/Ego the Living Planet adventure, the Mangog stories, many of the battles with Ulik, the Galactus trilogy, the 5 issue Ssthgar/Mercurio/Xorr mega-story, the Firelord/Hercules/Galactus/Ego story, and so on.<br /><br />I've always enjoyed Thor the most when he's in a larger setting, in Asgard or going through space. He needs Earth-bound adventures too, but I think the best ones were the ones in Asgard or other cosmic settings. He is a god after all!Vintage Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04304777934048895240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-62621112690867664372013-08-09T08:28:04.549-05:002013-08-09T08:28:04.549-05:00A final comment that seems to be overlooked fairly...A final comment that seems to be overlooked fairly often, and an opinion on the new masthead.<br /><br />I always remind myself that while Stan was surmising there'd be interest at higher levels when he wrote, he knew his audience was basically the adolescent reader, so as we've all read before, he took characters of old and turned 'em into heroes. The folks now that chide him for scripting sappy dialog need to be reminded who he thought he was writing for.. I love that a major part of Lee's beloved charm was the 'in-your-face-I-know-this-is-silly-but-let's-enjoy-this-nuttiness-together' Bullpen shtick. <br /><br />Who knew it would be read/reread/reprinted/TPB'ed/Disney'ed/BAB'ed and used for multi-million dollar movie scripts 50yrs later..? <br /><br />The whole advent of the college (and soldiers overseas) readership took a lot of the industry by surprise, but again was stimulated by the explosive popularity of the Bat-craze.<br /><br />As for the masthead, agreeing with HB, it clearly looks like Marie. Perhaps Trimpe and Romita sketched their characters, but it looks 'Marie-centric' to these eyes.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-86613439646808498932013-08-09T08:19:22.954-05:002013-08-09T08:19:22.954-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-6723207750836429152013-08-09T05:49:02.311-05:002013-08-09T05:49:02.311-05:00I'll clarify what I said about Thor's &quo...I'll clarify what I said about Thor's "Shakespearean" style of speech.<br /><br />I don't mind it at all, I just think it works best when Thor is interacting with someone from Earth (whether it's the Avengers or Jane Foster) who doesn't talk like that. In fact, it's somewhat humorous to read.<br />When we get issues set in Asgard, we get the Shakespearean talk from all sides of the conversation. That gets old for me. <br /><br />The first Thor solo tale I ever read was this one (273):<br /><br />http://www.comics.org/issue/32441/<br /><br />It featured the Midgard Serpent in New York, that's the perfect Thor story in my book. Down to Earth and Asgardian at the same time.<br />J.A. Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15800901321134394272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-35877821512057749812013-08-09T05:47:56.537-05:002013-08-09T05:47:56.537-05:00Say-- a quick jump back to that cool mast-head pic...Say-- a quick jump back to that cool mast-head picture:<br /><br />The artist-- Marie Severin, you think? Yes? The Hulk looks to be pure Trimpe. . . except he tutored directly under Marie on the Hulk's book around '67/'68, and clearly reflected her style at that point. . . so it could actually be her. Round-head Subby would also be her. AND Capt.Marvel's Kree uniform (and inclusion as part of Marvel's perceived "mainstream") would also indicate a late '67/early '68 timeframe, yes?<br /><br />Man, I wonder where this image originally came from. Clearly, the Torch and Iron Man are meant to be supporting something at the top of that wegde-shaped column they've created. A MARVEL logo would be my first guess. . .<br /><br />(Sorry, I've obsessed about this image since I first saw it reprinted in black & white in the mid-70's)<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-3604385331731677662013-08-09T01:24:05.466-05:002013-08-09T01:24:05.466-05:00I think the book is more interesting with Thor as ...I think the book is more interesting with Thor as a cosmic hero but for the films, not so much.<br /><br />One of the great things about the Simonson run was that although Thor & Beta Ray Bill's stories were cosmic in setting, they were also firmly rooted in Norse mythology characterization & conflict. The current God of Thunder run emulates that closely (how effectively is a separate argument).<br /><br />The movies, OTOH need the Midgar driven set-pieces to make it relatable to a mainstream super-hero audience rather than an esoteric sci-fi/fantasy driven one. That said, I'm not rating the quality of the thor movies so far.J.V.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-84926290370175397332013-08-08T22:39:14.135-05:002013-08-08T22:39:14.135-05:00In a nutshell - false. I agree with all of the pre...In a nutshell - false. I agree with all of the previous commentators in that Thor works best when he is torn between his role as prince of Asgard and protector of Midgard (Earth). This inner conflict makes him a more relatable and interesting character. I recall an issue I read many years ago where Thor himself questioned why he always felt such a strong connection to Midgard - I found out later that his mother was the Earth Goddess Gaea.<br /><br />As for Thor being a sleuth in the traditional sense of Sherlock Holmes - nope! I can't picture the Thunder God solving a crime by examining minute details. It just ain't in his nature. However, he is a cunning warrior, and like Conan the barbarian, has defeated foes by tricking them rather than overpowering them as Doug illustrated when Thor defeated the Absorbing Man. I remember someone in a Conan comic book once said (paraphrasing): 'You are smarter than you look. I'm sure many a foe has learned that the hard way'. I think this applies to both Thor and Conan, two warriors not normally regarded as smart, but who have nevertheless on several occasions defeated villains using their brains rather than brawn.<br /><br /><br /><br />- Mike 'have at thee!' from Trinidad & Tobago.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-77473011009150103922013-08-08T22:01:29.575-05:002013-08-08T22:01:29.575-05:00Rather funny how much the Ringmaster and his crew ...Rather funny how much the Ringmaster and his crew got around, Doug, especially when you know the orginal Ringmaster was one of Captain America's earliest foes in 1941 and Kirby resurrected him 21 years later to tangle with the Hulk! Of course, later it was retconned that Cap faced against the Silver Age Ringo's father -- now I suppose they'd have to make him grandfather Ringmaster. And Ringmaster did wait until after Big Daddy Odin took away all of Thor's extra-godly powers before messing with the Thunder God.Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-29169236680424262582013-08-08T20:59:01.327-05:002013-08-08T20:59:01.327-05:00Wow -- I had no idea this topic would blow up as i...Wow -- I had no idea this topic would blow up as it has. Thanks to all for your impassioned participation this day!<br /><br />Just to respond to a few of the points that have run through today's discussion --<br /><br />Personally, I really like the faux-Shakespearean speech patterns of Marvel's mythological creatures. It's something that sets them apart and for money has really worked. I'd say that no one did it better than Stan, but along the way others did have success; of course, there were failures, too, but generally Thor and others sound like Stan's early imagining.<br /><br />Not digging Thor as a detective at all. Nope, not at all necessary. We have Batman, Daredevil, etc. to fill that role. If all characters were of the same powerset or backstory, how boring would that be? Guys like Thor, Superman, and the Hulk fill an important part in these universes we love. And if you're looking for Thor to solve a problem with his head, how about the time he defeated the Absorbing Man by tricking ol' Crusher into taking on the properties of helium? How's that for sleuthing?<br /><br />If Thor is going to be written street-level, something has to be done to make him interesting. I just received the latest Thor Bronze Age tpb, reprinting Annuals 5-6 and a few issues from #267-271. Good lord, he fought the Stilt-Man in one of those issues. The Stilt-Man! Give me Hela, Mephisto, Ares, or some other godlike or astral baddies.<br /><br />Moondragon was a... sorry. But anyway, she was probably right to a degree. If you think of the best Avengers arcs featuring Thor, they are either cosmic (Kree/Skrull, Celestial Madonna, Korvac, Annual #7/MTIO Annual #2) or feature some unbeatable foe like Ultron ("Ultron, we would have words with thee!"). Now we're talking Thor territory. I just don't think he's really necessary if the Ringmaster shows up (although come to think of it, the Circus of Crime was a recurring foil in Journey Into Mystery).<br /><br />Carry on.<br /><br />Doug<br /><br />Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-27281750907486546052013-08-08T20:12:00.709-05:002013-08-08T20:12:00.709-05:00Thor hardly makes his teammates superfluous. Your ...Thor hardly makes his teammates superfluous. Your rating them solely on brute force. Iron Man's technical facility, Vision's logic, and so on, fill areas where Thor is of little or no use. All it takes is a good writer. Stories where super heroes win due to sheer force I find exceedingly dull.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-41316207221177574172013-08-08T20:07:22.111-05:002013-08-08T20:07:22.111-05:00What you noted is exactly why it would make a good...What you noted is exactly why it would make a good story: Thor way out of his element, Mjolnir of no use to him, no way to muscle his way to a solution.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-66268843420683019582013-08-08T18:53:23.438-05:002013-08-08T18:53:23.438-05:00I'm gonna backstop davidB and say that I, too,...I'm gonna backstop davidB and say that I, too, liked the Elizabethan English that the god-folks all used (no offense, J.A. & Colin). And, really, Stan did not handle it too badly at all-- was pretty good, in fact, at using "thee", "thy", "thou", and "you" in all of the right places with the right syntax. He generally gave it a natural, conversational flow and above all kept it clear. When other writers have used it incorrectly (Sweet Fancy Moses, Liefeld's AVENGERS anyone?), it simply unbearably obvious.<br /><br />Fred, your point about the parallels of a kid struggling w/ the yoke of parental authority is a very good one-- I think you're right on the money. Especially since Thor was surprisingly obedient to that authority, regardless of mitigating circumstances (a point that ol' Greatest Generation Stan would surely want to emphasize, right?).<br /><br />Hmm- Thor as a detective? I dunno, I dunno. He just had never had that kind of canny, deeper way of looking at any situation, y'know? Head-on solutions are pretty much what he's hard-wired to look for. Now, the Warriors Three as a Detective TEAM-- oh man, I'd pay good money to see that! Geeze Louise-- that would be seventeen kinds of a hoot!<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-14290011013819052852013-08-08T17:57:22.738-05:002013-08-08T17:57:22.738-05:00One of the both interesting and occiasionally irri...One of the both interesting and occiasionally irritating aspects of the early Thor tales was his recurring conflicts with his father. Yep, here he is the most powerful superhero on Midgard but he's routinely smacked down by his own dearly beloved dad! The Hulk never had to contend with that! And aside from when his bratty adopted kid brother (Lee could never remember that Loki was Thor's adopted brother, not his half or step-brother, sheesh) tricked Odin into getting ticked off at Thor, there were arguments over his choice of lady friends and wanting to hang out on Midgard rather than go home to Asgard. And rather than ground Thor, Odin would just take away a big chunk of his godly powers, like taking away his bike. In those aspects at least, readers could empathize and even identify a bit with Thor.Fred W. Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07602124919964053532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-90533836456233063422013-08-08T17:21:18.575-05:002013-08-08T17:21:18.575-05:00I think a more interesting story for Thor, rather ...I think a more interesting story for Thor, rather than a punch-up (which is how nearly all his stories are resolved), would be to make him solve a mystery. Stick him in an old-school Batman story where how much you can lift and how hard you can punch is no help in resolving the situation.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-50209247119022952562013-08-08T17:18:31.296-05:002013-08-08T17:18:31.296-05:00Funny thing... I like Thor as a character but ther...Funny thing... I like Thor as a character but there aren't a lot of Thor comics I would read again. After reading Horus in the "1963" series by Alan Moore, whenever I read Thor I just think how much more interesting an ongoing Horus series would have been.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-25596696308780058172013-08-08T16:53:14.170-05:002013-08-08T16:53:14.170-05:00Not much to expand on here, but FALSE. As mentione...Not much to expand on here, but FALSE. As mentioned, it's Thor's interaction with mortals that's been his 'gist' all along. I actually LOVED Lee's silly Silver Age attempts at 'godspeak'.. It's what made the Bullpen cool. Frankly, it's a bunch of low-pay caucasian writers in New York trying to sound 'knowledgeable', much like Haney's teenbeat lingo for the young hip Titans, or the initial attempts at writing for Luke Cage. It's what made Marvel fun.<br /><br />Yeeeah, the Hyde/Cobra fights were insipid, but the crux was integrating the Blake/hospital supporting cast, recalling back in the '60s, doctors shows were still brimming with doctor/nurse melodrama. I never read much of Thor's solo stories, but like Wanda and Iron Man, I was getting a bit annoyed when Thor would come waltzing in on the last page to fight Graviton in ish 165. Like mentioned earlier about him and Supes, it isn't easy to fit god-beings on teams.<br /><br />Much like Vision or Supes, the only effective way non-superpowered opponents can drop 'em is by surprise, like Mantis in ish 114 gas like back in CA ish 113.<br /><br />What does come through is his bestowing praise on other less-strong heroes, like Spidey, Cap, Hawkeye, you name it. Even with his Asgardian past, he recognizes true purity in heroics and spirit, to the point of falling in love with mortal Jane Foster.<br /><br />As for Moondragon..? She was a piece of work, a whackjob. Was she purely hittin' on Thor, like Enchantress before her..? Frankly I wouldn't trust her any farther than I can throw her. I'd take Mantis and her 'this one's over Moonie any day.david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-67729687963255127762013-08-08T16:11:50.566-05:002013-08-08T16:11:50.566-05:00Agree that the gods of ancient (especially Greek a...Agree that the gods of ancient (especially Greek and Roman) mythology were often depicted with human character flaws, so Marvel was just following tradition. Still, it always annoyed me in some of the older stories when Odin (who, in Norse myth, had traded an eye for wisdom) was so easily duped. Loki would tell him that Thor had turned traitor or coward, and Odin would immediately strip Thor of half his strength or something, without first trying to verify. That was a necessary plot device when Thor was fighting mortal villains, though. Otherwise, the fight would have been over before the second page. BTW, Thor was portrayed as a swaggering, over-confident oaf in a 1988 Hulk made-for-TV movie. That version, too, may have borrowed from Hercules, who was portrayed that way both in ancient myths and in Marvel comics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-31050138599552772942013-08-08T15:51:50.117-05:002013-08-08T15:51:50.117-05:00I'm probably going to end up straddling the fe...I'm probably going to end up straddling the fence, because I can agree with both sides. I don't think the character himself is more interesting in cosmic settings, but the cosmic stories are more plausible. Having Thor fight the Cobra and Mr. Hyde was like sending a SWAT team to arrest an unarmed shoplifter. And, as a member of the Avengers, he presents the same problem as Superman in the Justice League: he is so powerful that the other members are superfluous. (A common problem with team-ups in general is that they have heroes tripping over each other while fighting a threat that any one of them could have handled alone.) One solution was to un-super the hero (kryptonite for Superman, or having Thor turn back into Blake) but that was contrived and became monotonous, as did the reverse deus ex machina device of having Thor or Superman arrive at the last minute and save the day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-31942622722167391632013-08-08T14:38:42.265-05:002013-08-08T14:38:42.265-05:00Well the Greek gods of classical myth certainly ne...Well the Greek gods of classical myth certainly never seemed to have learned anything -they had huge character flaws, but then, that was their thing, they were human nature writ large. So the Marvel gods are just following the historical example. Besides, if the Asgardians or Olympians or Eternals were perfect, they'd be boring! Although we did have that brief period of time during Gerry Conway's run on Thor when Odin actually turned into a decent father and started traveling with Thor, and the two had a much better relationship. Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-49402722424481175912013-08-08T14:16:33.835-05:002013-08-08T14:16:33.835-05:00No, as soon as Moondragon expresses an opinion lik...No, as soon as Moondragon expresses an opinion like that, you pretty much know that it's gonna be 180 degrees out of whack.<br /><br />I've talked about it at length elsewhere, but the biggest character flaw in MU's immortal "god" races of beings is that they've individually been alive for-EVER, and yet they clearly are just about fundamentally incapable of personal growth. They make the same mistakes over and over again for thousands (tens of thousands?) of years on end. All of that lifespan, all of those experiences, and yet they are collectively- and for the most part individually- no wiser than the fleet-lived mortals of whom they hold themselves to be so superior. Although I think this is really just an accident of the writing over the years, it nevertheless becomes a salient point, because it suggests that these li'l mortals really ARE the superior race of beings, in a way. And Thor is one of the few Asgardians who seems to be able to recognize that, at least on an instinctual level. Even better, it's a lesson that he inadvertantly LEARNED and retained while going through one of his periodic banishments from "All Wise" Odin, which puts him a developmental notch above the rest of his Asgardian fellows.<br /><br />Hunh. The more I talk about him, the more I like him. Maybe I'm a Thor fan, and just didn't realize it?<br /><br />HBHumanbellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-86224879468586189392013-08-08T13:50:03.769-05:002013-08-08T13:50:03.769-05:00Well, I certainly don't agree with Moondragon,...Well, I certainly don't agree with Moondragon, so I don't think Thor should forsake Earth and all of us mortals. And I certainly liked Thor's appearances in Avengers.<br />But I'm not sure where I stand on this question. My favorite iteration of Thor was the Simonson run (which I have yet to read in its entirety), and I guess the stories were more cosmic or celestial there, i.e., he seemed to be tackling big problems as Karen put it.Edo Bosnarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-60132892375106806032013-08-08T12:47:38.800-05:002013-08-08T12:47:38.800-05:00If there's one thing you can say about Thor...If there's one thing you can say about Thor's personality, it's that from his very inception, he was written more like an Arthurian knight than a rampaging Viking. He was noble to a fault. Sure, not the most humble of guys, but always the first to put himself in harm's way and ready to bear any burden. Which he frequently did, since Odin was constantly testing and punishing him! Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-92084137969495678542013-08-08T12:38:50.820-05:002013-08-08T12:38:50.820-05:00Humanbelly,
I just got my hands on those frog-tho...Humanbelly,<br /><br />I just got my hands on those frog-thor issues and found I still loved them.<br /><br />I remember those brittle bones issues fondly, perhaps I should find those again as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-46142438169877472922013-08-08T12:18:27.094-05:002013-08-08T12:18:27.094-05:00I'm of two minds.
Thor should not forsake th...I'm of two minds. <br /><br />Thor should not forsake the Earth. But that said, some of the most memorable Thor adventures for me were the ones when he effectively went on some vast quest, gathering up a gang of helpers, and defeating some remote cosmic menace, whether mythological or science fictional. <br /><br />I love him on Earth, but he does seem sometimes like Superman, slumming and toning it down so he won't scare the natives. <br /><br />Rip OffRip Jaggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09936426877024852134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-42387804741312222882013-08-08T12:12:24.502-05:002013-08-08T12:12:24.502-05:00Somewhat OT/tangential-- but still a Thor question...Somewhat OT/tangential-- but still a Thor question--<br /><br />Does he still have Don Blake's medical skills/prowess? Many, many times in the past, Thor was able to subtly draw on that knowledge whilst in his true Thor form. I mean, ol' Don was pretty much the "surgeon to the superheroes" while he existed (sort of like Matt Murdock being everybody's lawyer), and MANY a life was saved simply through his surgical brilliance. Any Thor-philes out there have a canonical answer to that? It would be awfully cool to have Thor save the day by doing emergency surgery on, like, Ulik or someone. . . <br /><br />HB againHumanbellynoreply@blogger.com