tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post9156005816608462485..comments2024-03-19T10:41:35.976-05:00Comments on Bronze Age Babies: Super Blog Team-Up: Was the Vision Really Carrying a Torch?Doughttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-64755063705877066322014-03-27T07:29:43.968-05:002014-03-27T07:29:43.968-05:00David --
I've never read the first Vizh/Witch...David --<br /><br />I've never read the first Vizh/Witch mini-series. I faithfully bought the second one -- all 12 issues. Curse the completist in me! Truly one of the worst experiences of my comics collecting career! But it's long since gone to someone who would hopefully love it more than did I.<br /><br />So unless Karen has either of those two series, I think they shall remain "unreviewed", at least on this blog.<br /><br />Sorry!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-44252383412634069882014-03-26T10:21:47.219-05:002014-03-26T10:21:47.219-05:00Doug, Karen, good idea...:
Any love for the V/W m...Doug, Karen, good idea...:<br /><br />Any love for the V/W mini's..? A review of the first one would be cool.<br /><br />As for the second 12-ish LS..?<br /><br />We can calmly reflect that it really didn't happen, a dream like Bobby Ewing suddenly popping up in the shower.<br /><br /><br /><br />"..yeah, that's it, that's the ticket.."david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-90618137225031225602014-03-25T21:30:23.999-05:002014-03-25T21:30:23.999-05:00Anonymous --
I don't know that I hate the Joh...Anonymous --<br /><br />I don't know that I hate the John Byrne stuff as much as I feel that his "solution" to the problem was so extreme, that even if he'd wanted to change course the undoing of his changes would have been years in the making. <br /><br />I would agree with your assessment of Englehart's second Vision/Witch LS, but just have to believe that the damage done therein could have been corrected organically within the parameters of the character as we knew him. There was a ton of physical, emotional, familial et al. angles that could have been used to make the Vision more dynamic and interesting -- instead, we got a neutering of the character in multiple facets of his being.<br /><br />Thanks for you input -- I especially appreciate your observation about that V/W mini-series.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-25399101083919018502014-03-25T20:39:14.087-05:002014-03-25T20:39:14.087-05:00You guys obviously hate the Byrne stuff - and I di...You guys obviously hate the Byrne stuff - and I did not like the change myself. But - and you knew this would come - I think consideration has to be made of where the Vision was at the time. Frankly, Englehart had completely ruined the character in the second Vision & Scarlet Witch miniseries. He now was a suburban dad with 2 kids, and was no longer the cool aloof character who was arguably the most popular character without a book in the 70's. Taking that into account, Byrne's move makes a lot more sense. He returned a sens of danger and mystery to the character. I still don't like it - but I like it better than what he was when it happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-47318348185645403672014-02-24T19:23:18.158-06:002014-02-24T19:23:18.158-06:00Frankly, John Byrne may be the most overrated comi...Frankly, John Byrne may be the most overrated comic book writer ever. His Vision retcon is an abomination. His work on FF is ridiculously flawed. He completely made a mess of the Amazing Spider-Man retcon. His only true success may be Superman. Jack Alberti https://www.blogger.com/profile/16113347155906724048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-13378218312133634872014-02-23T14:59:04.556-06:002014-02-23T14:59:04.556-06:00A note to those of you who enjoyed the Super Blog ...A note to those of you who enjoyed the Super Blog Team-Up last Wednesday:<br /><br />Fantastiverse's post on the <a href="http://www.fantastiverse.net/super-blog-team-up-age-of-retcon-bucky-4-0-the-winter-soldier/" rel="nofollow">retcon of Bucky Barnes into the Winter Soldier</a> is now live. Check it out, and if you didn't see any of those other blogs' contributions, please do!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-24013026433844480892014-02-21T12:52:07.423-06:002014-02-21T12:52:07.423-06:00C'mon, Bruce -- everyone knows Ultron graduate...C'mon, Bruce -- everyone knows Ultron graduated first in his class at the Career Center student awards program in 1968! Duh...<br /><br />Hey, that's a great point, though; one I'd never given a thought to.<br /><br />And thanks for the kind words on the post -- we appreciate it!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-73716705033978420842014-02-21T12:47:10.278-06:002014-02-21T12:47:10.278-06:00Fantastic post! Y'all really outdid yourselves...Fantastic post! Y'all really outdid yourselves this time.<br /><br />I never cared for the idea that Vision was a revamped Human Torch. I couldn't get past the idea that he was 30-year-old technology by that point. It would've been like entering a car from the 1940s into the 1973 Daytona 500. Vision seemed too "high tech" to be a WWII-era relic.<br /><br />Having said that, Byrne's retcon was awful. Absolutely awful. I'm normally a huge Byrne fan, but he totally ruined the Vision and Scarlet Witch, at least for a while.Bruce B.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-85146778966242707332014-02-20T04:49:50.843-06:002014-02-20T04:49:50.843-06:00This post was a real education for me. I knew abou...This post was a real education for me. I knew about Vision and Wanda, and I knew there was a connection to the original Torch but this was something else. Amazing how some of the seeds that were planted in Vision's back story took so long to shoot.<br /><br />I love the back and forth format of this blog. You guys have something really special going on. Keep doing what you're doing!<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03266957148333194240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-9378624394700838472014-02-19T21:16:26.171-06:002014-02-19T21:16:26.171-06:00Finally, the work day is done, dinner is over, and...Finally, the work day is done, dinner is over, and I can sit down and read all the Super-Blog posts and enjoy!<br /><br />It really was great fun to work on our post; Doug and I wanted to do something special and I hope that came through. I appreciate his kind remarks towards me, but he came up with the great idea to contact Kurt Busiek! Kurt was more than gracious in responding to us. Many thanks again to him.<br /><br />Also, kudos to all our fellow bloggers! It's been great to see the other posts and feel like a real part of a cross-over event -but this one didn't cost anyone a dime! I was also pleased to see several of our "regulars" commenting over at the other blogs -spreading the love so to speak!<br /><br />I feel like those of us who truly dig the Vision are a select few now. His star, that shone so brightly once, has really faded away at Marvel. As Paul mentioned, I don't think younger readers can understand what a central character he once was. It is somehow comforting to hear from others who remember him as an important part of their comic reading lives.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17032477453891087135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-19197794484571368912014-02-19T20:52:53.678-06:002014-02-19T20:52:53.678-06:00Thanks, guys!
I've also been remiss in not pu...Thanks, guys!<br /><br />I've also been remiss in not publicly thanking my writing partner. We did a little trade-off about a month ago. I told her I'd take the play-by-play on the first three issues of "Secret Empire" if she'd frame today's post. Well, did she ever! As most of you know, she is a part-time contributor to Back Issue magazine, and through that has been able to interview several of our Bronze Age creative heroes. It was the notes from the interviews of days past, as well as a darned good memory in terms of digging up Roy's comments from various locations that really brought this post to reality.<br /><br />She's pretty good, in case you all didn't know it!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-76867556392080679732014-02-19T20:40:29.264-06:002014-02-19T20:40:29.264-06:00Avengers Forever is truly a fine series which I...<i>Avengers Forever</i> is truly a fine series which I'll have to sit down and re-read at some point. It's sometimes a little dizzying, with its back-to-back revelations and twists; but it gets huge props for attempting to make sense of so much Avengers development over the decades.<br /><br />As for the Vision and the Torch, and the derailing of Thomas's (and Englehart's) plans to tie the origin of one to the other, Busiek's compromise works well enough for me--for the simple reason that, once the Torch's stint in <i>Avengers West Coast</i> was through, I very much enjoyed as a reader what was done with the Torch by writers like Ed Brubaker et al. The original Human Torch wasn't really a character I was going to keep an eye out for on the sales rack, so I had no great interest vested in the character either way; but his status as an android (and an apparently fairly <i>easy</i> android to abduct and reprogram, at that) made for very interesting and often tragic stories for him, a pattern of abuse going all the way back to FF Annual #4. Quite a fresh and compelling take on a legendary hero who Marvel might otherwise have simply brought back into circulation in much the same way that Byrne arranged.<br /><br />Hell of a nice job on this, you two. :)<br />Comicsfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10064955427593820783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-76165567185447696682014-02-19T20:38:37.347-06:002014-02-19T20:38:37.347-06:00I never read Byrne's Vision disassembly, nor A...I never read Byrne's Vision disassembly, nor Avengers Forever. I will definitely look for the latter in the TPB. <br /><br />The Vision has a great history, and was a pivotal figure in many Avengers epics. I found his marriage to Wanda rather charming; at times it brought a very human element of modesty to him (think of the scene on the beach during their honeymoon). Somehow these comics marriages become all too vulnerable to later 'disassemblies' (don't get me started on Peter and Mary Jane...). It is heartening to see the increased attention to the Vision stemming from the Avengers film prospect. Might even justify picking up an issue or two of the current book.<br /><br />Oh, and a big "thumbs up" to Super Blog Team Up!Redartznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-84091433502353756842014-02-19T20:26:48.236-06:002014-02-19T20:26:48.236-06:00Thank you to all who've commented thus far, ei...Thank you to all who've commented thus far, either here or on Twitter. There has been much praise heaped on today's post, and Karen and I are truly gratified by the sentiments. We wanted to treat this as a special day, knowing that not only were our usual cast of readers counting on us but that there'd be some "new faces" stopping by.<br /><br />To our pals who participated in the second Super-Blog Team-Up -- thanks for having us along and pushing us to really reach higher. We hope that if you get the gang together again in the not-too-distant future, you'll keep the Bronze Age Babies in mind!<br /><br />And to those of you coming by who have not checked out the other eight blogs, please do so. I think the neatest thing about today is the diversity in not only content, but in the style in which that content is delivered. This has been a uniquely fun experience!<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-53656578029108798382014-02-19T20:22:53.371-06:002014-02-19T20:22:53.371-06:00LBG --
I couldn't agree more. We've had c...LBG --<br /><br />I couldn't agree more. We've had conversations around here in the past about creators as custodians of the past -- of the history of characters. I suppose each generation has their attachments, but let's face it -- the industry over the past three decades has ceased to serve only a recurring line-up of 10-year old consumers. Many of us in the "middle-aged" category have a deep sense of connection to characters and storylines as they were in our formative years. Should things change? Sure they should -- but not from their fundamental nature.<br /><br />Byrne screwed that up.<br /><br />And I'll also add that generally I have loved everything the man has done at both of the Big Two. But his assassination of the Vision is akin to all the unkindness Bendis has wrought over the past 10 years.<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-67574574293487963552014-02-19T20:12:25.219-06:002014-02-19T20:12:25.219-06:00Byrne's destruction of the Vision (and his uni...Byrne's destruction of the Vision (and his unique relationship with Wanda) was such a disappointment, so misguided, so senseless, really ... I don't think readers today can really appreciate how strong and distinctive these characters were in the early 1970s. Byrne's deconstruction was one of the great mishaps in Marvel history and Byrne and his editors should never live it down.<br /><br />(And I say this as an unabashed Byrne fan, by the way ... love him on most everything else he did at Marvel, but his Vision story was a catastrophe).<br /><br />Great article!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16366973046396822651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-68105314621387725452014-02-19T18:47:24.803-06:002014-02-19T18:47:24.803-06:00Great post! It was a lot of fun reading the histo...Great post! It was a lot of fun reading the history of Vision retcons. I started collecting The Avengers with the Bride of Ultron story and Vizhwas always one of my favorites. In part because he looked cool and in part because, like Karen mentioned, he had the Spock thing going on.<br />Count me as strongly disliking the Burns retcon, which ruined a great character, and the Dark Wands story was awful anyway.dbutler16https://www.blogger.com/profile/00046066729353639991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-58153597836551652642014-02-19T18:42:14.858-06:002014-02-19T18:42:14.858-06:00Hmmm, I've never read Avengers Forever, but no...Hmmm, I've never read Avengers Forever, but now I'm thinking I'd better!<br /><br />I like the "blog crossover" idea...except now I've found MORE cool comics blogs that I have to start reading...there's only so much time in the day!<br /><br />Mike W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-51402735384220775532014-02-19T16:49:44.221-06:002014-02-19T16:49:44.221-06:00One quick amendment: Although I somehow never mana...One quick amendment: Although I somehow never managed to acquire that particular issue of Avengers Forever, I applaud Kurt Busiek for his approach to the material. The way that he worked out the divergent origins of the Vision was the total opposite of the laziness that I talked about in my last post. Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-45534003472328891272014-02-19T16:45:17.823-06:002014-02-19T16:45:17.823-06:00Thanks for the great post and for the Super Blog T...Thanks for the great post and for the Super Blog Team-Up. What a great idea. <br /><br />Vision has always been my favorite Avenger. In fact, I would say favorite superhero. I, like Doug, was not happy with what Byrne did to him, essentially destroying the character. And, as Doug said, he had never really recovered from that. <br />(I haven't read a new comic in about a decade, but I've seen hints of what they're doing with Vision in Avengers A. I. Have to say, I'm crazy about what I see there either.)<br /><br />One of the changes that annoyed me most is the dissolution of his and Wanda's marriage. I, for one, was thrilled to see a happily married couple being portrayed in comics, even as a kid. It seems that the notion that kids cannot identify with married characters strikes me as short-sighted and lazy. I can only think of one marriage in superhero comics that has endured, and that's Reed and Sue Richards. (And truth be told, they may not be together anymore for all I know.) Of course a married couple may have its ups and downs, but ending the relationship is not always the answer. And totally erasing it out of existence, as I said, just seems lazy. Okay, that's gotten a bit off-topic, but I felt the need to rant. Sorry. Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-41440097304685248132014-02-19T16:03:02.546-06:002014-02-19T16:03:02.546-06:00Great post! Thanks for uncovering and sharing some...Great post! Thanks for uncovering and sharing some very interesting background on the origin of the Vision.<br /><br />Viz has always been one of my favourite characters ever since I first got to know him from Team-Up #42 which was one of my first comics. I loved his speech bubbles and icy cool demeanour. Plus he had cool powers which gave the writers something new to play with.His powers were pretty unusual (for comic characters) weren't they?<br /><br />I remember thinking I was reading something special and important when reading his origin (which were being reprinted in the British B&W weeklies at the time). Even at that young age I knew it made sense and was an exciting story as well. The Mantis part wasn't bad either.<br /><br />As much as I love John Byrne, I didn't like the changes to the Viz he brought about although I could live with the loss of the children.<br /><br />On a final note,I've not read Avengers Forever since it came out. I enjoyed it then but I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy it even more now knowing more Avengers history. Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04436307600954599534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-48627876421851808322014-02-19T15:41:28.603-06:002014-02-19T15:41:28.603-06:00Yeah, it's strange that Stan Lee demanded the ...Yeah, it's strange that Stan Lee demanded the Vision be an android because it was modern, whereas the original Vision's status as an extradimensional being was passe, when one considers that as you say in the article arguably the first Marvel superhero, the Human Torch, was an android. And there have been plenty of extra-dimensional beings since; who was the first android/robot type being introduced in the Marvel Age? Was it the Dragon Man?Myleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12043726696705049938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-33780342870915699132014-02-19T12:48:07.409-06:002014-02-19T12:48:07.409-06:00Just wish Byrne hadn't destroyed the classic V...Just wish Byrne hadn't destroyed the classic Vision. Also wish Vision never got married and subsequently sidelined. He was such a central figure in the Avengers, it just seems the character got tossed aside for no good reason. Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-83132199597189662652014-02-19T12:44:25.345-06:002014-02-19T12:44:25.345-06:00Hey, all --
Just wanted to alert our readers to M...Hey, all --<br /><br />Just wanted to alert our readers to Marvel's newest tpb and hc solicitations -- there's some <a href="http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1402/19/marveltrades.htm" rel="nofollow">awesome stuff</a> of note for all Bronze Age Babies!<br /><br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04248324005584963229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5293155946761960913.post-14860690669804311342014-02-19T12:12:01.559-06:002014-02-19T12:12:01.559-06:00This day is pretty awesome, and I'm checking o...This day is pretty awesome, and I'm checking out the other blogs..<br /><br />"ALL..HAIL.. SUPER BLOG TEAM-UP"<br /><br />(From my window, I can gaze upon the huddled masses in the streets are all raising their arms in victory.., ale all 'round..)<br /><br />One thing I love about the BAB column is I can peek at issues I NOW cannot live without.<br /><br />That Avengers Forever title is looking better and better, Karen. I love the Goliath scenes in what you depicted. Finally, someone delving into the Silver/Bronze past and paying tribute to it. <br /><br />Count me in as a new fan.<br /><br />david_bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00218727673816200051noreply@blogger.com