Stepbrothers -- Fantastic Four #25

Fantastic Four #25 (April 1964)
"The Hulk vs. The Thing!"
Stan Lee-Jack Kirby/George Bell

Karen: I think we all felt a little cheated with Fantastic Four #12; we really didn't get the knock-down, drag-out fight we all wanted to see between the Hulk and the Thing. Well, get ready, because here it comes!

Karen: I have to say, I'm always taken back by how crude Kirby's art was at this stage. Although the dynamism is there, it is rough and, at times, I almost can't look at it. But the story still proves to be an exciting one.

Doug: Certainly we're not too far removed from the Atlas era, and I think Jack's art was stuck there. But as we all know, those pencils would enjoy a meteoric rise once under the influence of Vinnie Colletta and Joe Sinnott (although Vinnie was not a good fit for Kirby on the FF).

Karen: As I mentioned in a comment on another post the other day, it's like night and day once Sinnott started regularly inking Kirby. I like Colletta on Thor, but agree he was not the best fit for Kirby on FF. That was Sinnott. So, on with our story: we start at the Baxter Building, where Reed is trying to get the Thing to drink a serum he has "accidentally" developed, and which he believes will transform his friend back into Ben Grimm forever. But the obstinate Thing refuses to take it -he instead smashes it! Reed is furious with Ben, but Ben fears that his girlfriend Alicia loves the Thing, not Ben.
Doug: How about that opening splash, with Ben literally climbing the walls, and what the heck was Sue doing on the floor? Additionally, we see Johnny make a flame lasso -- that was a gimmick Kirby had employed in our previous review of FF #12. It's interesting that Ben's insecurities in these days oscillate between manifestations of rage, self-loathing, and intense depression. His character was really being molded in these first two years.
Karen: Who should show up but Alicia, carrying the day's paper. It says that the Avengers are seeking the Hulk, who has disappeared and been replaced by Captain America. Cut to New Mexico, where the green goliath carjacks a truck. Curled up in the back, the Hulk transforms back into - Bob Banner? Yes, Bob Banner! Hey, you try writing a whole line of comics and keeping all the names straight. After fleeing a road block, Banner agonizes over why he keeps turning into the Hulk -and then turns into the Hulk, and jumps off in search of his desert lab.

Doug: The only "benefit of the doubt" that I can toss Stan's way is this: wasn't the Hulk's alter ego Robert Bruce Banner? I know in the television series he was David Bruce Banner, but I'm thinking in the Silver Age his first name was at one point Robert. But really, no one caught that? And didn't Stan pound it into the ground in those first few panels?

Karen: If I recall correctly, they added the 'Robert' after this issue, to sort of explain away the mistake. I could be wrong but I thought that was the story. Next we look in on the Avengers, who have been tracking down their former team-mate. They discover the truck he was riding in in New Mexico and wonder what he's up to. Rick Jones comments that the Hulk must be heading back to his lab, which elicits puzzled responses from Cap and Iron Man, who can't imagine the brutish Hulk doing anything that involves brain power. But indeed, the Hulk IS in his lab, and pretty much tearing up the place, due to his hatred of "Bob" Banner. He starts tossing things out of his pockets to rid himself of everything Banner. I had to chuckle when I realized two of the things were a book of matches and a pipe -all brainy types smoke pipes! Hulk is about to toss away a newspaper clipping but pauses to read it (remember -he wasn't an idiot yet) and becomes enraged when he discovers that the Avengers have replaced him with Captain America. Thinking that Rick has also deserted him, the furious brute decides to go to New York and destroy the Avengers.
Doug: The panel sample of Cap and Rick that you've provided is interesting to me -- I assume you snatched it from the FF DVD-ROM. I read this story from the book in which I first saw it -- Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles (way back in the Origins of Marvel Comics series of tpbs). In that version of this story, Cap's headgear is just that -- it does not extend into his chain mail. Here it looks like he has fabric on his neck. So I was thinking just now that Kirby was drawing Cap as he had back in the War years.
Doug: What did you think about the Hulk bounding all the way from New Mexico to New York City? Tireless, maybe -- but that's almost 3000 miles!
Karen: Hey, he's the strongest one there is! Of course he can do it! Back at the Baxter Building, Reed collapses with a fever. We learn he has been working with viruses! Was there any area of science that Richards didn't excel in? He's like the Professor on Gilligan's Island. Sue and Ben tend to Reed while Johnny heads off in the Fantasticar to get a doctor. Flying over the city, however, he sees the Hulk on a rampage and foolishly decides to take him on. The Torch lands and attacks, but the Hulk shatters the ground and then grabs the Torch -whose flame has grown weak! Boy, it sure seems like Johnny could barely maintain his flame for more than a few minutes back in the early sixties. Johnny apparently passes out.

Doug: So as a plot vehicle, why do you suppose Stan and Jack chose to hold Reed out of the fight? Was it just to show us that Ben could fight on his own without Reed calling all the shots? Johnny was about worthless, wasn't he? Maybe he should have used the flame lasso...

Karen: Yeah, I think all the other FFers were put on the sidelines just so we could have a one on one match-up. I'm always surprised when I read these early issues just how weak certain characters were -mainly the women, but here Johnny as well. I think Iceman also was treated pretty badly early on. I would suppose it is because they are youngsters, but I don't recall Spidey getting that treatment, unless he was sick. The city summons the FF to fight the Hulk, but Ben tells the authorities they need a doctor for Reed. Reed tells both Ben and Sue to go, warning Ben that "The Hulk's strength has never been measured! I'm afraid he's far stronger than you, old friend! You'll need your wits...don't let him grab you..." Ben and Sue jump in a police car (!) and head off to face the Hulk. Johnny is up again, but his flame is still weak -only his hand is aflame - and the Hulk grabs the youngster in one hand and looks ready to hurl him away! Sue surrounds Johnny with a force field but the Hulk jumps high into the air, and Sue passes out from the effort of maintaining the field! It seems that both Storm siblings were fairly limited in their abilities back in the old days. The Thing tells a soldier to take care of Sue, and then goes to face the Hulk -now it's getting good!

Doug: By the way, that was one ugly police car. If memory serves, Sue's force field came around in issue #13 (EDIT: Well, memory doesn't serve. As pointed out by faithful reader/commenter Edo Bosnar, Sue's abilities to make other objects/people invisible, as well as to use her powers to create forcefields, was first shown in Fantastic Four #22. I am getting too old for this...), which was right after the last story we reviewed. So this is a new wrinkle. However, as she'll eventually become arguably the most powerful member of the Four, here she's still Silver Age fodder for Stan's sexism.

Karen: One thing I noticed is that a lot of words are exchanged between our two combatants -I expect that of the Thing but not the Hulk. Of course this was a Hulk that was basically of normal intelligence. Still, I don't expect him to say things like, "Fool! You're just a muscular freak! But I'm the Hulk!" Ben lands the first blow and knocks the Hulk off his feet. Naively, Ben thinks that his best bet is to wear the Hulk out. Boy is he in for a surprise. Ben bobs and weaves like the boxer he is, but ultimately, the Hulk grabs him. As Reed warned, this is not a good thing, as old Greenskin leaps into the air and tosses Ben right at a building. Ben grabs onto the roof edge, only to hang on for dear life as the Hulk rocks the building back and forth! Yes, it's incredibly silly, but fun.

Doug: In the preface to this story (again, in Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles), Stan does mention that the Hulk is perhaps the Marvel character who has changed the most since his inception. The Man credits writers and artists who came after he and Jack for said evolution, and doesn't besmirch them. What do you think -- change for the better in making the Hulk dumb? I was somewhat amazed throughout this story at how strong the Hulk was portrayed. I know I've read many stories of him doing impossible feats, but there was a real sense of hopelessness for Ben in this tale. And yes, that was one tough building. Sheesh...

Karen: The Hulk of my youth was indeed the childlike, 'dumb' Hulk, so that was all I knew. But when I began to read older stories I really appreciated the non-dumb version more. I think the writers of the dumb Hulk were very limited with what they could do with him. It seems to me that a lot of his stories tended to revolve more around his supporting cast. I think there's more options with the normal intelligence, tough guy Hulk.

Karen: Ben decides to just let gravity work for him and lets go of the building, planning to crash down on the Hulk. But the Hulk is faster than he thinks and once again takes hold of him, this time stuffing him through a manhole. Unknown to the Hulk however, Ben is right next to a thick electrical cable, and he uses it to shock his foe momentarily. But nothing stuns the Hulk for long. Across town, Reed struggles to get to his feet, hearing of the battle from the TV newscast. He bemoans the fact that the Hulk is too strong for Ben, but there's nothing he can do about it. I like the way he's drawn here, with his arm elongated but in a weird S shape. He really looks out of it.

Doug: Agreed. Despite the sometimes clumsy-looking art, Reed's illness is well-played. By the way, as you've mentioned the art at the top, I'd add that in this issue Ben really seems like he's at his Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe-listed height of 6'0". However, he's not bulky at all! C'mon, Jack -- feed the boy!

Karen: For some crazy reason, the Yancy Street Gang decides the best way to help out the Thing is to roll a truck down a hill at the Hulk. However, although the Hulk gets knocked into the bed of the runaway pickup, so does the Thing, and the two of them wind up in the river. Ben manages to swim to a motor boat and take off, giving him some time to figure out a new plan. He thinks he's lost the Hulk, but suddenly a huge green fist comes up through the boat! The two of them wind up at the George Washington Bridge and Ben manages to wrap a huge cable around the Hulk, temporarily immobilizing him. But Ben now realizes that although he is nearly exhausted, the Hulk keeps getting stronger. The Hulk strains and snaps the cable, and pounds Ben down to the ground. Then he takes off, saying he's going to find the Avengers.

Doug: I guess it was never said exactly in what part of the city the battle played out, but that truck from Yancy Street rolled a potentially very long way!

Karen: Picking himself painfully up, the Thing is stunned by his defeat. "He beat me! That big, brainless, muscle-bound creep beat me!! It...it...never happened before!" Shaking off his shame, the Thing bravely heads back to face the Hulk. So here in this early tale, we're seeing the situation that would continue even to today: The Thing as the never-say-die underdog in his match-ups against the more powerful Hulk.

Doug: Ben Grimm, the original Rocky Balboa... love it!