Doug: We're talking uniforms/costumes today, kids. What is your opinion of super-suits being revamped, or even just tweaked, when a new artist comes onto a title? Or, and maybe this is even worse, what's your opinion on a character who appears in more than one title and one of his pencilers tosses in his own "personal touch" while the other remains true to the current character design? These can be somewhat subtle changes, such as a different look for Batman's utility belt running between Batman and Detective Comics.Doug: Most of us are fond of Dave Cockrum's costume re-designs for the Legion of Super-Heroes in the early 1970's. However, in hindsight some of them are quite gawdawful -- and didn't Mike Grell just take that ball and run with it? Who among you would be strutting your stuff in the togs of Cosmic Boy, or of Tyroc? Yeah, you'd look sweet in those little white elf shoes, Killer!
I'm certain there were many Legion fans who had been with the team since it's inception who were quite put-off by this young intruder to the canon that was Legion lore.Doug: And what of classic outfits that stand the test of time, like Hawkeye's suit (although from recent artwork I've seen he's now apparently dressed as he will be in the Avengers feature film)? We've commented ourselves on the abrupt change in manliness tossed Clint Barton's way -- thank goodness they switched him back! Certain characters, like the Pyms, seem to change fashions all the time. For me, it's almost as if that has become a vital aspect of their very characters -- it bothers me not.
Doug: So let's hear it -- where do you stand on costume tweaks and/or re-designs? Do you have some favorites? How about panning a few here and there? And as always, thanks for your participation!
Lots to say on this subject.
ReplyDeleteOn the Legion and Cockrum's redesigns, as with many artists, the costume works when he or she draws it but then no one else can quite seem to get it right. That was true I think when Grell took over, and suddenly some of the lines on the bodies looked awkward. Cosmic Boy is the one that most quickly leaps to mind.
One character I love who underwent constant costume changes was Captain Marvel. He starts out in his green and white Kree uniform, then gets a slight tweak, before getting a full makeover into the basic blue and red and gold we're more familiar with today. And that costume then seemed to be drawn somewhat differently by everyone who touched it, including such luminaries as Gil Kane, Wayne Boring, Sal Buscema, John Buscema, and Jim Starlin.
Before the 80's costume changes though were relatively rare then the success of Black Spider-Man unleashed hell. We suddenly got variations on Cap, Shellhead, and even Thor. Some looked pretty dang good, but sometimes the hero looked so different as to become something other. In the 90's it was DC's turn with Superman, Batman, and most all of them getting snazzy new threads.
Silver Age changes were common though in some instances such as Ant-Man/Giant-Man/Goliath/Yellowjacket who seem to be different each and every time you saw him. The Wasp too is famous for her costumes and there was even a website dedicated to her for a time. I'll have to look and see if it's still up.
I don't mind costume changes by and large, though sometimes it's clearly best not to tinker with costumes designed by Jack Kirby. His stuff seems almost bulletproof and they always go back to it eventually. Case in point is Orion of the New Gods.
Perhaps the single best costume redesign in all of comics history was Blue Beetle. Ditko's greatest costume I think is his Ted Kord rendition of the hero when he rebooted him for Charlton. All the others have gotten new outfits. Outstanding and it's been hardly touched until recently when they created a whole new hero.
Judomaster might be the best original design that Charlton ever developed. Even though he's been hardly used, his Japanese Sun glory is instantly identifiable.
On the order of artistic license, I get annoyed with Cap artists who seem to all have a specific take on his scale armor. It can be downright distracting the way some guys draw it.
The all-time best costume ever though is Vampirella's. It's glory is apparent to each and every red-blooded male who is capable of grokking.
Rip Off
First of all, pixie boots should be banned. Beyond that, I don't have a big problem with minor tweaking of uniforms. A complete revamping is OK, sometimes. For instance, if it's not an iconic costume, or if it's simply a lousy costume. Everybody gets their costume changed at some point, but, for the iconic characters, they'll always eventually go back to their original costume, or at least something pretty close to it.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, other than the pixie boots, I actually didn't mind Tyroc's costume. It was a reflection of its time. That is to say, it was very 70's (not a bad thing) and fit right in with the "Disco Legion" costumes.
I'm usually okay with redesigned costumes. It is a simple way to update a character without otherwise mucking him or her up too much. And often times the updated costume does in fact look better.
ReplyDeleteWhat I typically don't like are revamp's that change the powers, retcon the origins, switch the identies, etc. I was a fan of Dr. Fate, but the post-Crisis changes to the character were alternately baffling and annoying.
Great subject.. Like Rip said, there's a few characters that changed in the 80s, but it was all WAY too trendy, which led to a lot of backlash.
ReplyDeleteRemember when it was armor and spikes..? Spidey, Bats, Captain America, everyone started wearing armor. Ugh.
All in all, I didn't follow Cockrum's take on Legion, but I really liked Timberwolf's revised outfit in the early 70s. By no means intentional, but it's been noted here before how his costume/character mimiced what ended up being Wolvie.
As for the Mar-vell example, Rip's spot on. I loved his first white/green outfit (seemed so Silver Age and even 'Charleston-esque'), but couldn't stomach the change to red-blue until Starlin started drawing him.
I never cared for Romita Sr. drawing Captain America and his outfit (seemed 'pansy-ish'), but when drawn by either Buscema brother, it rocked.
I understand Byrne's basic changes of the FF uniform, but you have to admit, Sue Richards when through some pretty, um, comically-risque costume changes in the late 80s'/early 90s, embarrassingly so (and pretty pointless) at times.
Very thankful for Busiek and Perez coming back to re-invent the Avengers, pretty much to their classic look. Like the X-men movie critics proved, fans WANT to see classic outfits, not all leather and dark street-style outfits all the time. It's part of the fun.
Ah, one further comment.. How do folks like going back to retro first-appearance outfits, despite years of a better known outfit, such as Daredevil as yellow and black (or dark red..)..? It's kinda cool, I think.
ReplyDeleteAlso, kudos to Clint's open shirt and hippy headband outfit as being mercifully brief.
David B, I do generally like when heroes go "retro". To use your specific example, I like that Daredevil went back to his yellow outfit, but since I actually like the red one better (more practical as a creature of the night and more fitting in with the "devil" theme) I'd want him to eventually go back to his more well known costume. But the original is a fun temporary change of pace.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Clint, I actually didn't mind the open shirt & headband, but the shirtless thing with some sort of suspenders & shoulder pads that he wore as Goliath from the 60's to about the 90s was godawful, I thought.
I think the costume change debate breaks into 2 halves: random costume changes because the artist felt like it (most of ‘em) and changes connected to the plot (which were probably a thinly veiled excuse for a re-boot). The latter would include Subby’s blue costume, Doc Strange’s bald-head ‘Steven Sanders’ phase, the original Xmen’s ‘grown up’ personalised costumes, Thor’s body armour, and, of course, that phase where the Hulk wore hot pants.
ReplyDelete( Just wanted to see if you were still paying attention there.......but having said that, I wouldn’t put anything past Bill Mantlo).
Rip – totally agree about Captain Marvell. I liked both costumes, although later I much preferred Ms. Marvel in the blue get-up to the derivative red one.
Hank and Jan are in a class of their own, she because her personality demands that she can’t leave her costume alone for five minutes and he because Marvel couldn’t leave his personality itself alone for five minutes.
I guess the most dramatic costume change linked to the plot was Storm’s journey from placid African princess to leather-trousered, mohawked head of the Morlocks.
And on the flip side, the king of not having costume changes was Wonder Man, who gave up after having his costume blasted off too many times and wore a horrific 70’s safari jacket, presumably in protest.
To Rip’s point about sexy costumes: really depends who is drawing it, I think. Wanda’s 80’s costume was not much different to her original 60’s one, but I certainly I lingered long on Wungadore Mountain when Byrne was curving his way round her. Also, Cloak and Dagger were after my time, but Terry Austin did a fantastic painting of that girl (Cloak or Dagger?) for a British Marvel comic, with her costume slashed to the navel. Beautiful art on her face.
Sorry Doug, that probably wasn't the kind of artistic 'license' you meant,right?
Richard
Here's a somewhat related question (it's OK if we stray a bit) -- what did you think of the Thing's exo-skeleton era?
ReplyDeleteAnd since I'm on the subject of the Bashful One, what's your opinion on pants and boots for the big lug? Or do the simple blue boxers seem right?
Doug
Thing's exo-skeleton to me was a bit of a cop-out. How can he retain his enormous strength in a costume like that, much less move around as he used to. I didn't like much of that period anyways.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the basic shorts.., hence why I haven't spent much $$ on his action figures, since most seem to have the pants/boots, and the head looks 'off' most of the time anyways.
As for terrible costume/style changes, TOTALLY agree on Storm going punkish in the '80s, and of course, White Queen...
Sheesh, WAY too much like cheap lingerie, can't stand it.
The 70s Legion redesigns by Cockrum were pretty cool, with the exception of select individual elements like those you've pointed out. I still prefer that era Legion over over the constant costume changes foisted on the Legion in recent years, and you are spot on in comparing this sad tendency to the massive Pym Family wardrobe variations.
ReplyDeleteAs for Hawkeye (a personal favorite Avenger of mine), it riles me up that his classic "look" doesn't get the big screen treatment, but it comes as no surprise to see that crummy guise sponge-fed into the latest comics too.
It's probably outside the remit of this blog but Giffen shoud get the "credit" for the Nineties Belt Pouch Explosion. The Magic Wars story immediately before The Five-Year Gap saw the LSH decked out in ugly coveralls and accessories. Timber Wolf even had a wolfskin cape!
ReplyDeleteAs for Bronze Age costumes, I love the Stephen Sanders look for Dr. Strange; the batwing Namor suit; and Nighthawk's jetpack costume.I also think Hawkeye palmed off his Barry Smith outfit on Warren Worthington, right down to the headband. The Champions costume is quite camp but it definitely says Angel.
I agree with David B on the exoskeleton being a cop-out. I also agree with him that Storm's punk look was aful (I imagine most of us agree with that) and that the White Queen looked more like a porn star than anything else.
ReplyDeleteWe need more headbands in superhero costumes!
Chuck beat me to the punch on Hawkeye. I don't care for the costume nor the actor playing him in the movies, but now they've got the 'real' Hawkeye running around in a vest and sunglasses. Sheesh.
ReplyDeleteHow about this question: Black Panther with or without the cape?
Since White Queen was mentioned, her dressing like a dominatrix in a porn film made sense when she was a sadistic villain (which she should have remained, in my opinion).
ReplyDeleteAs to Karen's question, Black Panther should NOT have a cape. Nor that Batmanesque cowl that he wore in a few Avengers issues in the late '60s.
And Richard beat me to it, but I have to also say that Ms. Marvel's change to the lightning bolt outfit is perhaps one of the best costume changes ever. Ditto for Wonder Girl switching from the Underoos to the red bodysuit.
Not only should the Panther not have a cape, he shouldn't have claws or that gold belt, either.
ReplyDeleteThe Donna Troy outfit is simple, yet a solid costume. I did like the "underoos" as an homage, but when you look at the rest of the Titans (Silver Age and New TT), only Speedy has a costume that resembles his mentor. Well, after Lil' Flash got his AWESOME red/yellow outfit (but he never wore the miniature Flash suit while a Titan).
Doug
Doug..
ReplyDeleteFlash (Wally) did wear the 'mini-Flash' outfit in the New Titans (deluxe format)..after Perez left.
OK -- fair enough. But you called him "Flash". So technically I'm right...
ReplyDeleteEveryone have a smiley weekend -- no new content (unless something awesome strikes one of us), so use your BAB time to go spelunking. Back at the Claremont/Byrne MTU's on Monday.
Doug
Yep, fair enough. I definitely don't like the Panther with the cape and belt.
ReplyDeleteAnd adding kudos to Donna's full red bodysuit,a beautiful addition to the original Titans.
Timeless and dynamic.
STINGRAY
ReplyDeleteOn the Thing: I liked the trousers n' boots look better. It seemed a little more dignified. But I like the ever-lovin' blue-eyed lug regardless.
ReplyDeleteAs to the White Queen's original - ahem - "costume." It really walked up to the line of inappropriate ... and then used its thigh-high boots to scuff the line away.
Needless to say, as a 12 year-old kid buying comics I thought it was awesome.
Marvel seemed to routinely tweak many of their characters' costumes in the Silver Age, the Pyms being just the most obvious examples, at least from theh point when Hank first became Giant-Man. Then there was Iron Man, whose armor underwent quite a bit of tinkering until they came up with the classic Silver Age costume circa 1965 which lasted until his 200th issue, late in the Bronze Age if not post-Bronze Age. Regarding Captain Marvel, his original costume did seem appropriate for an alien military uniform while the blue & red with yellow starburst costume had more of a standard superhero look. And I concur that Ms. Marvel looked a hell of a lot better in the lightning bolt costume than in the Captain Marvel variation.
ReplyDeleteOh golly, I wish I were more familiar w/ the Legion, and could make an enlightened comment regarding them. Guess I'll have to go with what I know. . .
ReplyDeleteLOVED the young X-Men's switch to the pop-art influenced red/yellow/deep blue/green motif 'waaaay back in issue #39. Their original uniforms were just so un-dynamic and, well, frumpy, to put it bluntly. The varying degrees of way-off-the-shoulder-ness of Jean's perky little mini-dress was also. . . captivating. . . to my developing young sensibilities. But that look for the team remains my favorite.
QUITE LIKED John Byrne's careful, respectful (and ludicrously explained) change in the FF uniforms from the traditional Sky Blue w/ black trim to the Black-ish Blue w/ white trim. I do think that was a better, more timeless look in the long run-- but years of tradition are hard to paddle against.
Was okay with Spidey's black suit-- and recognize that it was probably a more appropriate design for someone named "Spiderman"-- and multiple writers did a good job of keeping the character underneath the same ol' wiseguy-- but I don't know. They tried & tried to get us fans to fully commit to it & accept it. . .and it just never quite happened.
HATED when Iron Man got the bulky red & white armor (NO gold???). And here's a tidbit: Stan Lee was at a local comic convention a couple of years later, and when asked (as I'm sure he inevitable is) if he didn't like any of the changes other writer/artists had made to his creations, he paused for a moment, and surprised us all by saying, "Y'know, I didn't like it when they changed the color of Iron Man's armor, and took the gold out."
Even as Giant-Man/Goliath, Hank went through a bajillion costume tweaks. The brief one from about Avengers #47 through #51 is my favorite,though. The blue & yellow, w/ the hood antennae & goggles. The bizarre life-jacket thingy circa "The Crossing" is unspeakable.
And Thor? Thor could probalby have a thread all his own on this score. His current re-design is the only one I've found comparable to his original/classic look.
HB (stuck at a science competition all day. . . )
I liked it when Dick Grayson (at like age 21) FINALLY gave up his "little boy" short pants and became Nightwing, complete with an awesome (at the time anyway) new costume. Then in later years when Tim Drake became the new Robin he wisely decided to go with long pants and regular boots for his costume.
ReplyDeleteI always loved Spider-Man's original red & blues, so at the time, I was quite despondent when I read (in Marvel Age magazine) that they were going to CHANGE his costume. "Nooooo!" I cried, "they can't do it! I won't let them!" But, strangely enough, once the first books came out featuring the black suit I accepted it pretty quickly, and even grew to like it quite a lot. In fact, if they had decided to scrap the red & blues altogether and keep the black full time, I wouldn't even have killed myself. It still stands as one of my favorite costume changes ever. (That said, I'm very much glad they eventually decided to go back to the original).
As for Doug's question about the Thing. I like him in his blue trunks only (sans boots and long pants), and I detested the exoskeleton phase. Nuff said about that.
As everybody probably knows, DC recently "tweaked" almost all of their characters costumes in their recent "52" reboot. And I must say, I pretty much hate them all. I don't see anything wrong with characters like Superman and Batman having the outer trunks as part of their costumes. Gee, it's only worked for like 75 YEARS! But suddenly a bunch of know-nothing yahoos come along and decide that it looks stupid and that we (the readers) must think so too. You know, wearing outer trunks just isn't "edgy" and cool enough for todays sophisticated, hip, modern, trunks hating young reader.
And don't get me started on all the unnecessary changes they make to super hero costumes for the sake of movies. Aside from the aforementioned X-Men, why does Batman have to wear all black in the movies? Why can't Batman's costume be dark gray with black boots, gloves and cape, instead of the whole thing having to be all black? I don't get that.
And why oh why oh why are they changing Spider-Man's costume so much for the upcoming "Amazing Spider-Man" movie? At a glance it looks like the classic, but when you take a good look, the spider-symbol is too big, the boots are different (they even have shiny metal soles), the gloves and arms are really weird and his belt doesn't go all the way around. What's up with that? It seems like they made changes to the classic suit just for the sake of doing it. They aren't practical changes and they don't add anything to the costume. It's really a head scratcher.
Human Belly, agreed on the Ironman outfit change. I know they were trying to keep Tony bulky and intimidating, but I missed the red and gold as well. Plus the miserable Al Milgrom art didn't help, nor the less offensive but sterile Layton art in his own mag.
ReplyDeleteOh, as for trends, I forgot the jacketted FF and Avengers period. Pretty kitschy and quickly tiresome.
One must admit the changes to Black Widow were a good successful style changes. As Human mentioned keeping young attention, Widow's slinky black outfit kept me interested in Daredevil, totally complementing DD style; her later 80's change to gray togs and short bob hairstyle was a very smooth, natural updating of the same concept, very well done.
Oh heck, I might just as well go ahead and shatter my credibility right out in front of everyone. . .
ReplyDeleteI'm the one, solitary, longtime Marvelite who liked the Avengers' jackets and baseball caps. I guess. . . I was their audience right around then (I wondered where everyone else was. . . ). Heh.
"Team" jackets, of course, are a common item in many, many venues where identifying with a specific team is good for internal morale and an easy, fun way to maintain team identity. Obviously, the bomber-style letter jackets that were the preferred cool-weather wear in high-school would be the most familiar example. In college, different teams and departments often have their own label added to the school's generic jacket, which I always liked, as one could maintain a proud departmental identity within the broader college identity. Many, many theatrical tours come up with a "Tour Jacket" available for the entire company (well, for a price, natch)-- and I think that's what the Avengers' gear reminded me of the most. Something that you put on over your individual, everyday outfit that then identifies you with the rest of the team. It's a surprisingly simple (maybe bordering on simplistic?) way to say, "yep, this is the tribe I belong to, and I take a bit of pride in wearing their colors".
This actually may not be a mindset that inherently appeals to your average comic fan, as it's certainly less about heroic individualism, and falls more into the realm of team sports and similar endeavors-- even the military. But then I'm starting to buy into too many long-standing stereotypes-- so I'll steer away again.
HB
Oh heck, I might just as well go ahead and shatter my credibility right out in front of everyone. . .
ReplyDeleteI'm the one, solitary, longtime Marvelite who liked the Avengers' jackets and baseball caps. I guess. . . I was their audience right around then (I wondered where everyone else was. . . ). Heh.
"Team" jackets, of course, are a common item in many, many venues where identifying with a specific team is good for internal morale and an easy, fun way to maintain team identity. Obviously, the bomber-style letter jackets that were the preferred cool-weather wear in high-school would be the most familiar example. In college, different teams and departments often have their own label added to the school's generic jacket, which I always liked, as one could maintain a proud departmental identity within the broader college identity. Many, many theatrical tours come up with a "Tour Jacket" available for the entire company (well, for a price, natch)-- and I think that's what the Avengers' gear reminded me of the most. Something that you put on over your individual, everyday outfit that then identifies you with the rest of the team. It's a surprisingly simple (maybe bordering on simplistic?) way to say, "yep, this is the tribe I belong to, and I take a bit of pride in wearing their colors".
This actually may not be a mindset that inherently appeals to your average comic fan, as it's certainly less about heroic individualism, and falls more into the realm of team sports and similar endeavors-- even the military. But then I'm starting to buy into too many long-standing stereotypes-- so I'll steer away again.
HB
TÇhalla sans the cape for me!!
ReplyDelete