Interesting news and good to see that Marvel Productions continues to cast actors that can actually act.
One question though. In the article it states that the Black Panther was not only an Avenger of long standing but had enjoyed numerous 'critically acclaimed' solo runs.
So my question is this; can we view the phrase 'critically acclaimed' as double speak for 'sales flops' and 'financial failures'? For the life of me every time I see those words used it's in connection to some title that sank like a cement anchor.
Link didn't work for me, so maybe I'm missing something in the news article, but -
Seems reasonable to me to call, say, the Jungle Action era Black Panther run "critically acclaimed".
Which isn't to say phrases like that aren't a bit subjective and probably way over used... but are you suggesting sales are the only yardstick for success?
Thank you, Sean. I believe it is fixed now. I saw that article on Yahoo just as I was about to shut down at school and head home. Admittedly, the post was cobbled together hurriedly.
I'm not sure how I feel about Civil War being manufactured for the silver screen, but I am pretty excited about the rest of this fare. Infinity Wars is going to be rightfully cosmic, with the Guardians the the Inhumans. Puzzled, however, as to why they decided to make Captain Marvel the Carol Danvers version rather than Mar-Vell. But given Marvel's track record, I'm sure I won't be disappointed later.
It's a perfectly legitimate way to point out that a title (or movie or musical or TV show) was objectively and artistically successful even if, for whatever reason, it didn't catch on with the broader public. I totally get that and respect the use of the phrase in this circumstance. (Think: MY SO-CALLED LIFE; FIREFLY; MOON; THE TICK (Live action); several local productions of SWEENEY TODD; PUSHING DAISIES, etc, etc)
The link didn't work for me either, for some reason-- wonder what's up? Hey, and we all heard about Benedict Cumberbatch signing on for DR.STRANGE, yeah?? MAN, how of-the-moment A-List d'you think Marvel can continue to get?? And maybe they can pull in Johnny Lee Miller to play someone like, say, the Black Knight or maybe Damon Helstrom or Nighthawk. . . and then we'd have ALL THREE current Sherlock Holmes incarnations bound up in the same universe-! Ohhhhh how cool would that be-??
This is just tremendously exciting news. I like that roster of films. Chadwick Boseman is a solid pick for T'Challa. There is a clip up on the net right now from the presentation that shows Cap and Stark arguing in Age of Ultron; it will probably be pulled soon. But it seems to pave the way for Civil War, which apparently will be about who controls the heroes rather than secret identities. http://comicbook.com/2014/10/28/avengers-age-of-ultron-clip---sowing-the-seeds-of-civil-war/
Hold up, hold my phone. I'm a landlubber from way back. My father was a landlubber, his father was a landlubber, I have three brothers, two of them are landlubbers and one's a priest. But clue me in here cause I'm hip to be square, cement anchor!?! Aren't anchors supposed to sink? Isn't that the whole raison d'etre to being an anchor.....the sinking and the going down and the staying in one spot under water.......
The Prowler (Stayed in bed all morning just to pass the time there's something wrong here, there can be no denying one of us is changing, or maybe we've stopped trying).
Not all anchors are made from the same material or hold ships in the same manner.
Actually, the original comment had more to do with 'independent Italian Businessmen adorned with aggregate galoshes', but I thought it was a bit tacky.
Don't take this wrong, everyone who has asserted the artistic success argument, but this is where we agree to disagree. While I do respect the reasoning behind this assertion, I will point out that comic books are, first and foremost, a commercial enterprise. They have to sell, especially in the days before the possibility of movie franchises.
I will be the first to admit that I might be a bit overly sensitive regarding the 'critically acclaimed' tag. But its been used a lot and perhaps far more than it should have been. And just because something is critically acclaimed doesn't mean that it is any better than something that is broadly popular.
pfgavigan - Well... yes, comics have to sell, but for large companies like Marvel or DC that just means their range as a whole needs to sell - it could well make commercial sense to keep a handful of poorly selling but "artistically successful" titles going. Its the difference between short and long term profit - public tastes change, and some ideas take a bit of time to find their audience.
Starlin's Warlock was a flop in its day, but nearly forty years later several of the characters are earning large amounts of money for Marvel in films. Suddenly, cancelling the comic back in the 70s looks a bit short-sighted whatever the sales, which could also be the case with the Black Panther if the flick is a hit (to bring things somewhat back on topic).
Of course these things are hard to predict, and I agree "artistic success" is not a clear cut judgement call. But those are the sort of decisions people in creative industries get paid for. One or two loss leading titles could be very useful.
Wow, that is good news for the most part, although, like Doug, I'm a bit uneasy about the Civil War thing being spun out into a movie. And although Boseman does seem like a solid choice, I still think Idris Elba would be an absolutely perfect T'Challa. On the other hand - while I'll avoid plunging into fanboy internet outrage - I'm not really happy with the idea of Cumberbatch as Doc Strange.
As for Capt. Marvel, I like Mar Vell as much as the next fan, but I'm glad they're going with Carol Danvers. In fact, I think this should have been done much earlier, because it's way past time for a Marvel superhero film with a female headliner. Especially since, rather disappointingly, I see there's no plans for a solo Black Widow film.
Obviously I was in denial in an earlier thread when I expressed extreme skepticism about the Marvel films going down the Civil War road.
Recalibrate. Recalibrate. Recalibrate.
Okay. . . okay-- I can recognize that the basic premise of a schism in the superhero community-- be it based on opposing political allegiances, or philosophies, or national/cultural ties, or whatever-- is a perfectly reasonable and useful overplot device. A first-rate one, in fact, that's had a long, tried-&-true track record in movies and literature. The kind of conflict that's just perfect to hang one's dramatic hat on.
Why was it such an abomination, then, in the Marvel U? Well, I'm sure several million bajillion words have been feverishly typed on that subject already, but I'm going to posit one simple problem: Utter lack of respect for the long-established characters (literally, their CHARACTERIZATIONS) in the Marvel Universe-- treating them carelessly and cavalierly in order to serve the preconceived demands of the story. In other words, sloppy, arrogant, lazy and irresponsible writing.
The Cinematic U is muuuuch newer, of course, and isn't crippled with the weight of its own history. That's a much better playing to start from-- it really reduces the sense of being "betrayed" by the writer(s). But, I think the one crucial, CRUCIAL key to success (and I wish I could say I was filled w/ confidence on this point following through) will be to NOT let anyone with the initials B, M, and B anywhere NEAR the plotting or scripting process. PARTICULARLY not the scripting. I'm willing to approach with a completely open mind. . . except for that.
William, if subsequent Iron Man movies were going to continue the downward spiral (for me, at least) that were IM2 and IM3, then I think we've been saved. IM3's legacy will be Ultron, as I believe it's Stark's drone technology that will serve as the basis for Ultron's existence. IM2 gave us the Black Widow and the suit-in-a-briefcase. But beyond that, I really don't care if I watch those two films again. I'll watch the first one over and over, but I the last two didn't resonate with me.
The plans for Civil War have been firmly placed in the two Cap films, the three IM films, and Avengers. Think back -- you can pretty clearly see this coming.
Doug, I find your assessment of the IM films interesting. Personally, I like 1 & 2 about the same, i.e., I find them pretty interchangeable.
Like many, I like 3 a bit less, but I also don't understand the often harsh criticism it gets. After all, it has one of the best scenes in any superhero film, ever: when IM saves all of those people who flew out of the hole in that airplane's fuselage by having each person grab the hand of the next. Seriously, that whole sequence is so full of awesome - it pretty much epitomizes why we like superheroes, and made me forgive most of the film's other flaws.
Yes, that scene was very exciting, and would be one I'd turn to YouTube or some such venue to occasionally review.
However, I wasn't happy with the way Ben Kingsley and the Mandarin turned out. Kingsley gave a great performance as he always does, and the surprise twist was wonderful comic relief. But that's one unexpected turn that I wish had played out straight.
Visually the film was great. I think the main problem may be mine in that I had not read the Extremis storyline. Maybe that would have helped. I also felt the War Machine/Iron Patriot storyline distracted me.
So basically I need to see the film again, because I'm feeling pretty incoherent in my comments here!
But I still like the first IM film the best -- I'll stand by that. And I've enjoyed the Thor films, although there was a bit too much time committed to "de-powered Thor" in the first one.
For sheer quality so far, the two Cap films win hands down for me.
Regarding sexism: Considering the female Marvel characters were defined at a time when a gal’s main job was to get tied to the railroad tracks, I think they’ve worked hard with the female characters in the films. I definitely agree there are no strong female characters…as long as you disregard Pepper, Natasha, Peggy Carter, Roxanne Simpson, Maria Hill, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Jean Grey, Mystique, Emma Frost, Electra, Rogue, Yuriko, Mariko, Sif, Jane Foster, Darcy Lewis, Gamora, Nebula & Nova Prime. I would also imagine the casting of Emily Van Camp means we can anticipate some arse-kicking from Sharon Carter before long. Likewise Evangeline Lily as Hank’s daughter, but it’s Wanda I’m really looking forward to. I’m guessing that Kate Mara’s Sue Storm won’t be doing much washing up either. Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel makes sense to me, given that they haven’t really introduced the Kree conceptually.
Regarding racial balance, well, I think making white characters black for sake of it is just tokenism, but it worked with Nick Fury, so maybe it depends on the casting. One in eight Americans is African American. Between leading characters like Nick Fury, T’challa, Storm, the Falcon, Blade, etc. and pretty cool supporting characters (Rhodey, Heimdall) I think they’re trying, at least. Another lead would be good, but it needs to be like the Panther or Blade i.e. a character with some relevance. Making Doc Strange black for the sake of it is just offensive.
HB, though I am in total agreement with what you post, part of me wants to say: "Tell us how you really feel"!
I honestly wish I could buy enough DQ Blizzards to fill that hole those writers created in you.
I've been working some overtime and I can probably push back on that scanner for a while longer, what say you and I hit Taco Bell, get a little drunk and stage a local production of Sweeney Todd?
The Prowler (I'm friends with the monster that's under my bed get along with the voices inside of my head You're trying to save me, stop holding your breath and you think I'm crazy, yeah, you think I'm crazy).
WHoa I think my buddy Prowler needs to lock up that bottle of Scotch pronto! :)
Seriously, thought this is great news. Fans have waited, like 40 years to see a Black Panther film. Wesley Snipes was great in Blade but I hope the Panther will be a major hit. Benedict CumberBatch as Doc Strange is an intriguing choice. Hope he can pull of the moustache! Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel? Let's see who they cast to play her first before I can comment on that.
On a side note, it's refreshing to see DC announcing an ambitious slate of 10 superhero films. Up to this point, with the exception of Chris Nolan's Batman trilogy, the boys over at Merry Marvel have been destroying their DC counterparts at the box office. We're starting to see DC finally give the House of Ideas at least a small glimpse of competition. Either way, the big winner in the end will be the viewing public if we get to see at least 20 superhero movies in the next few years! I can't wait!
- Mike 'love Cap Marvel but wished they made Black Widow first' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Blizzards and freezer pops are certainly worthy candidates for attempted hole-filling-- I will definitely not try to talk you out of it!
Man, Sweeney Todd is just about my favorite musical ever (and definitely my dream role). I'm pretty sure I could walk into a production and go on with about one solid day of staging rehearsal. Although opera companies tend to do it, pfg, I'm not convinced it's a great fit for them, as it's an over-the-top, HIGHLY active musical thriller. Very little tolerance for "hit the mark and sing the aria".
Interesting news and good to see that Marvel Productions continues to cast actors that can actually act.
ReplyDeleteOne question though. In the article it states that the Black Panther was not only an Avenger of long standing but had enjoyed numerous 'critically acclaimed' solo runs.
So my question is this; can we view the phrase 'critically acclaimed' as double speak for 'sales flops' and 'financial failures'? For the life of me every time I see those words used it's in connection to some title that sank like a cement anchor.
pfgavigan
Link didn't work for me, so maybe I'm missing something in the news article, but -
ReplyDeleteSeems reasonable to me to call, say, the Jungle Action era Black Panther run "critically acclaimed".
Which isn't to say phrases like that aren't a bit subjective and probably way over used... but are you suggesting sales are the only yardstick for success?
-sean
Thank you, Sean. I believe it is fixed now. I saw that article on Yahoo just as I was about to shut down at school and head home. Admittedly, the post was cobbled together hurriedly.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how I feel about Civil War being manufactured for the silver screen, but I am pretty excited about the rest of this fare. Infinity Wars is going to be rightfully cosmic, with the Guardians the the Inhumans. Puzzled, however, as to why they decided to make Captain Marvel the Carol Danvers version rather than Mar-Vell. But given Marvel's track record, I'm sure I won't be disappointed later.
Doug
It's a perfectly legitimate way to point out that a title (or movie or musical or TV show) was objectively and artistically successful even if, for whatever reason, it didn't catch on with the broader public. I totally get that and respect the use of the phrase in this circumstance. (Think: MY SO-CALLED LIFE; FIREFLY; MOON; THE TICK (Live action); several local productions of SWEENEY TODD; PUSHING DAISIES, etc, etc)
ReplyDeleteThe link didn't work for me either, for some reason-- wonder what's up? Hey, and we all heard about Benedict Cumberbatch signing on for DR.STRANGE, yeah?? MAN, how of-the-moment A-List d'you think Marvel can continue to get?? And maybe they can pull in Johnny Lee Miller to play someone like, say, the Black Knight or maybe Damon Helstrom or Nighthawk. . . and then we'd have ALL THREE current Sherlock Holmes incarnations bound up in the same universe-! Ohhhhh how cool would that be-??
This is just tremendously exciting news. I like that roster of films. Chadwick Boseman is a solid pick for T'Challa. There is a clip up on the net right now from the presentation that shows Cap and Stark arguing in Age of Ultron; it will probably be pulled soon. But it seems to pave the way for Civil War, which apparently will be about who controls the heroes rather than secret identities.
ReplyDeletehttp://comicbook.com/2014/10/28/avengers-age-of-ultron-clip---sowing-the-seeds-of-civil-war/
Hold up, hold my phone. I'm a landlubber from way back. My father was a landlubber, his father was a landlubber, I have three brothers, two of them are landlubbers and one's a priest. But clue me in here cause I'm hip to be square, cement anchor!?! Aren't anchors supposed to sink? Isn't that the whole raison d'etre to being an anchor.....the sinking and the going down and the staying in one spot under water.......
ReplyDeleteThe Prowler (Stayed in bed all morning just to pass the time there's something wrong here, there can be no denying one of us is changing, or maybe we've stopped trying).
Not all anchors are made from the same material or hold ships in the same manner.
ReplyDeleteActually, the original comment had more to do with 'independent Italian Businessmen adorned with aggregate galoshes', but I thought it was a bit tacky.
Don't take this wrong, everyone who has asserted the artistic success argument, but this is where we agree to disagree. While I do respect the reasoning behind this assertion, I will point out that comic books are, first and foremost, a commercial enterprise. They have to sell, especially in the days before the possibility of movie franchises.
I will be the first to admit that I might be a bit overly sensitive regarding the 'critically acclaimed' tag. But its been used a lot and perhaps far more than it should have been. And just because something is critically acclaimed doesn't mean that it is any better than something that is broadly popular.
Off the soapbox, sorry for the rant.
pfgavigan
pfgavigan - Well... yes, comics have to sell, but for large companies like Marvel or DC that just means their range as a whole needs to sell - it could well make commercial sense to keep a handful of poorly selling but "artistically successful" titles going. Its the difference between short and long term profit - public tastes change, and some ideas take a bit of time to find their audience.
ReplyDeleteStarlin's Warlock was a flop in its day, but nearly forty years later several of the characters are earning large amounts of money for Marvel in films. Suddenly, cancelling the comic back in the 70s looks a bit short-sighted whatever the sales, which could also be the case with the Black Panther if the flick is a hit (to bring things somewhat back on topic).
Of course these things are hard to predict, and I agree "artistic success" is not a clear cut judgement call. But those are the sort of decisions people in creative industries get paid for. One or two loss leading titles could be very useful.
-sean
Wow, that is good news for the most part, although, like Doug, I'm a bit uneasy about the Civil War thing being spun out into a movie.
ReplyDeleteAnd although Boseman does seem like a solid choice, I still think Idris Elba would be an absolutely perfect T'Challa.
On the other hand - while I'll avoid plunging into fanboy internet outrage - I'm not really happy with the idea of Cumberbatch as Doc Strange.
As for Capt. Marvel, I like Mar Vell as much as the next fan, but I'm glad they're going with Carol Danvers. In fact, I think this should have been done much earlier, because it's way past time for a Marvel superhero film with a female headliner. Especially since, rather disappointingly, I see there's no plans for a solo Black Widow film.
Hmm, so no more solo Iron Man movies? That's surprising since it was the flagship franchise that pretty much started it all.
ReplyDeleteObviously I was in denial in an earlier thread when I expressed extreme skepticism about the Marvel films going down the Civil War road.
ReplyDeleteRecalibrate.
Recalibrate.
Recalibrate.
Okay. . . okay-- I can recognize that the basic premise of a schism in the superhero community-- be it based on opposing political allegiances, or philosophies, or national/cultural ties, or whatever-- is a perfectly reasonable and useful overplot device. A first-rate one, in fact, that's had a long, tried-&-true track record in movies and literature. The kind of conflict that's just perfect to hang one's dramatic hat on.
Why was it such an abomination, then, in the Marvel U? Well, I'm sure several million bajillion words have been feverishly typed on that subject already, but I'm going to posit one simple problem: Utter lack of respect for the long-established characters (literally, their CHARACTERIZATIONS) in the Marvel Universe-- treating them carelessly and cavalierly in order to serve the preconceived demands of the story. In other words, sloppy, arrogant, lazy and irresponsible writing.
The Cinematic U is muuuuch newer, of course, and isn't crippled with the weight of its own history. That's a much better playing to start from-- it really reduces the sense of being "betrayed" by the writer(s). But, I think the one crucial, CRUCIAL key to success (and I wish I could say I was filled w/ confidence on this point following through) will be to NOT let anyone with the initials B, M, and B anywhere NEAR the plotting or scripting process. PARTICULARLY not the scripting. I'm willing to approach with a completely open mind. . . except for that.
HB
William, if subsequent Iron Man movies were going to continue the downward spiral (for me, at least) that were IM2 and IM3, then I think we've been saved. IM3's legacy will be Ultron, as I believe it's Stark's drone technology that will serve as the basis for Ultron's existence. IM2 gave us the Black Widow and the suit-in-a-briefcase. But beyond that, I really don't care if I watch those two films again. I'll watch the first one over and over, but I the last two didn't resonate with me.
ReplyDeleteThe plans for Civil War have been firmly placed in the two Cap films, the three IM films, and Avengers. Think back -- you can pretty clearly see this coming.
Doug
Doug, I find your assessment of the IM films interesting. Personally, I like 1 & 2 about the same, i.e., I find them pretty interchangeable.
ReplyDeleteLike many, I like 3 a bit less, but I also don't understand the often harsh criticism it gets. After all, it has one of the best scenes in any superhero film, ever: when IM saves all of those people who flew out of the hole in that airplane's fuselage by having each person grab the hand of the next. Seriously, that whole sequence is so full of awesome - it pretty much epitomizes why we like superheroes, and made me forgive most of the film's other flaws.
Edo --
ReplyDeleteYes, that scene was very exciting, and would be one I'd turn to YouTube or some such venue to occasionally review.
However, I wasn't happy with the way Ben Kingsley and the Mandarin turned out. Kingsley gave a great performance as he always does, and the surprise twist was wonderful comic relief. But that's one unexpected turn that I wish had played out straight.
Visually the film was great. I think the main problem may be mine in that I had not read the Extremis storyline. Maybe that would have helped. I also felt the War Machine/Iron Patriot storyline distracted me.
So basically I need to see the film again, because I'm feeling pretty incoherent in my comments here!
But I still like the first IM film the best -- I'll stand by that. And I've enjoyed the Thor films, although there was a bit too much time committed to "de-powered Thor" in the first one.
For sheer quality so far, the two Cap films win hands down for me.
Doug
Regarding sexism: Considering the female Marvel characters were defined at a time when a gal’s main job was to get tied to the railroad tracks, I think they’ve worked hard with the female characters in the films. I definitely agree there are no strong female characters…as long as you disregard Pepper, Natasha, Peggy Carter, Roxanne Simpson, Maria Hill, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Jean Grey, Mystique, Emma Frost, Electra, Rogue, Yuriko, Mariko, Sif, Jane Foster, Darcy Lewis, Gamora, Nebula & Nova Prime. I would also imagine the casting of Emily Van Camp means we can anticipate some arse-kicking from Sharon Carter before long. Likewise Evangeline Lily as Hank’s daughter, but it’s Wanda I’m really looking forward to. I’m guessing that Kate Mara’s Sue Storm won’t be doing much washing up either. Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel makes sense to me, given that they haven’t really introduced the Kree conceptually.
ReplyDeleteRegarding racial balance, well, I think making white characters black for sake of it is just tokenism, but it worked with Nick Fury, so maybe it depends on the casting. One in eight Americans is African American. Between leading characters like Nick Fury, T’challa, Storm, the Falcon, Blade, etc. and pretty cool supporting characters (Rhodey, Heimdall) I think they’re trying, at least. Another lead would be good, but it needs to be like the Panther or Blade i.e. a character with some relevance. Making Doc Strange black for the sake of it is just offensive.
Richard
HB, though I am in total agreement with what you post, part of me wants to say: "Tell us how you really feel"!
ReplyDeleteI honestly wish I could buy enough DQ Blizzards to fill that hole those writers created in you.
I've been working some overtime and I can probably push back on that scanner for a while longer, what say you and I hit Taco Bell, get a little drunk and stage a local production of Sweeney Todd?
The Prowler (I'm friends with the monster that's under my bed get along with the voices inside of my head You're trying to save me, stop holding your breath and you think I'm crazy, yeah, you think I'm crazy).
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHB, though I am in total agreement with what you post, part of me wants to say: "Tell us how you really feel"!
I honestly wish I could buy enough DQ Blizzards to fill that hole those writers created in you.
Good luck on that. He still owes me his stash of freezer pops!!
And thanks bunches for reviving long suppressed memories of the University of Wisconsin Madison OPERATIC version of Sweeney Todd!
WHoa I think my buddy Prowler needs to lock up that bottle of Scotch pronto! :)
ReplyDeleteSeriously, thought this is great news. Fans have waited, like 40 years to see a Black Panther film. Wesley Snipes was great in Blade but I hope the Panther will be a major hit. Benedict CumberBatch as Doc Strange is an intriguing choice. Hope he can pull of the moustache! Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel? Let's see who they cast to play her first before I can comment on that.
On a side note, it's refreshing to see DC announcing an ambitious slate of 10 superhero films. Up to this point, with the exception of Chris Nolan's Batman trilogy, the boys over at Merry Marvel have been destroying their DC counterparts at the box office. We're starting to see DC finally give the House of Ideas at least a small glimpse of competition. Either way, the big winner in the end will be the viewing public if we get to see at least 20 superhero movies in the next few years! I can't wait!
- Mike 'love Cap Marvel but wished they made Black Widow first' from Trinidad & Tobago.
Blizzards and freezer pops are certainly worthy candidates for attempted hole-filling-- I will definitely not try to talk you out of it!
ReplyDeleteMan, Sweeney Todd is just about my favorite musical ever (and definitely my dream role). I'm pretty sure I could walk into a production and go on with about one solid day of staging rehearsal. Although opera companies tend to do it, pfg, I'm not convinced it's a great fit for them, as it's an over-the-top, HIGHLY active musical thriller. Very little tolerance for "hit the mark and sing the aria".
HB (whose interests are all over the map. . . )