Doug: Today (and in future posts like this one) we're going to give you a specific comic book title and then ask you to make some positive choices. We're looking for elements of the book that you liked, but then asking you to pick a top dog. So this isn't like "Who's the Best..." -- here we're asking you to pick two things you like and then give a rationale as to why one's just a bit better to you than the other. Today's book is the Avengers, and it's all fair game -- storylines, creators, villains, heroes, covers, you name it! I'll start, as an example.Doug: I really like Roger Stern's run on the book, particularly after John Buscema came back aboard for the penciling (you can have the Al Milgrom years). It's a pretty key run for me personally, as Stern was the writer when I got back into regular comics buying. I enjoyed Hercules and Namor on the team, and pretty quickly gravitated to the new Captain Marvel and her mentor-mentee relationship with Captain America. But... I don't like it as much as I like Steve Englehart's run a decade earlier. If Stern's run was formative in my re-entry, it was Englehart's work that was formative, period. I came aboard as the "Celestial Madonna" arc was beginning, and really loved the book from first glance. Reading that era, with the art of Dave Cockrum, the Vision and Scarlet Witch, and the scope of that Kang/Immortus/Rama-tut saga gave me such a sense of awe each month. And reading those issues alongside the reprints in Marvel Triple Action made me a fan for life. Follow it up some months later with the Serpent Crown/Wild West/Squadron Sinister epic, and I owe it to Englehart -- he hooked me.
Doug: Your turn!
Doug, Doug, Doug-- yer just gonna poke poor jeirich smack in the eye with that Byrne image of the Avengers, there? Ohhhhhh, you're a hard man, McGee---!
ReplyDeleteHB
That's actually a pretty good image; I think it was originally a b&w commission piece done by Byrne, with color added by some random fan later.
ReplyDeleteAs to the matter at hand, I'll compare Shooter's first run to the one that immediately followed i.e., the one that ran from about issue #s 180 to 200. I really like the former, because it has some great stories, like the battle against Graviton, the Bride of Ultron, the Nefaria throwdown, and the famed Korvac saga, and it had some great art by Sal B., Byrne and Perez.
However, I'd give the edge to that later stretch of issues (hard to call it anyone's specific run, but Michelinie wrote most of the stories and most of the art was, again, by Byrne, Perez and Sal B.). I first started reading Avengers regularly with issue #181, and I still find most of the stories, like the Absorbing Man fight, Nights of Wundagore, Heart of Stone, the Taskmaster story and finally the Red Ronin battle, quite enjoyable and memorable. It's a pity that it ends with that frankly rather horrible Marcus/Ms. Marvel fiasco in #200.
I didn't get any "run" of Avengers until Stern took over. I enjoyed Captain Marvel II, the Vision's merging with Isaac and the visit to the Letterman show. I'm re-reading them right now in a reprint book and I don't mind the art team of Milgrom and Sinnott. They're never great, but they produced some solid Marvel House Style art.
ReplyDeleteBut I started collecting back issues around 1980-81. At the time I was a big fan of the Zodiac villains, so I bought their 4-part story that ran in Avengers 120-124. Then I work my way back to stories like the Defenders War. So you might say that Englehart hooked me, but well after his issues were published. I'm not sure why I found Zodiac interesting, now they just seem like generic thugs with no powers in animal costumes, one step above the Ani-Men.
During the late 70s/early 80s, the Roy Thomas/Buscema Buscema Brothers Silver Age stories were being reprinted. I was a big fan of those tales, especially the Kang/Grandmaster/Squadron Sinister 3-parter. I was too young and naive to realize they Squadron was DC heroes in disguise until later!
Edo, I couldn't agree with you more (although I have special place in my heart for the three Nefaria issues). The stories you listed though are among my all time favorites.
ReplyDeleteMy like and like it more contribution is Ant Man and Yellowjacket. I am a fan of all of the Hank Pym incarnations (except maybe the WCA safari Pym). But Ant Man and Yellowjacket are top notch. Cool design on costumes; a different and atypical power set. Pym usually had to employ a "thinking man's" approach to winning battles as his powers were often overwhelmed or outmatched by characters like Whirlwind, Living Laser, etc. But I definitely like Yellowjacket more. His costume was like no other. Yellow and black are not typical heroic colors, and the wings though impractical are visually cool. The addition of his stinging is a nice upgrade. And the control of bees vs ants ... no contest.
I know the Ant Man movie is getting some resistance, but I look forward to it. My biggest disappointment in its premise is that Yellowjacket is the villain and the costume is not closer to the classic design.
By the way, the Byrne image that Doug used is two parts of a four part commission of linked art (with different eras of Avengers coming at you).
ReplyDeleteThe first part had the original Avengers. The second part was the Kooky Quartet plus Goliath. The third and fourth parts are what you see.
Pretty cool.
Sounds like Martinex1 and I are on the same wavelength for all things Pym.
ReplyDeleteMy most memorable run will always be the Englehart tenure with the Mantis/Swordsman coming into the mix, through Swordy's death. That emotional rollercoaster stuff, along side the Avengers/Defenders Clash, was the best ever and caused me to start collecting Shell-head and anything with ol' Clint or Vish guest-starring. Loved that great Sal and Bob Brown art.
After that, seeing Donnie Heck move in and Hank McCoy become a regular (and especially bad distribution..) made it easy for me to leave the title. I did start picking up the title again around the 150's with Perez and the Pyms back on active status.
Hank Pym's YJ, Goliath and Antman outfits are some of the best designs ever. I always snicker when folks scratch their heads at the YJ wing concept...
"Whaaaat, you mean Tony Stark has 'perfect peripheral vision' looking through two iron slits...?"
Please.
David, ha! Great point...
ReplyDeleteMartinex, I recall seeing those commission pieces, uncolored of course, at Byrne's site a few years ago. You're right, very nice.
I also agree with you on Yellowjackt/Ant Man.
On the Ant Man movie - it's not that I don't think it should have been made, I just wish some other characters had gotten the movie treatment first. Like Black Widow. This is especially the case after viewing this lovingly-made fake title sequence for a BW movie.
I'd normally give Stern a slight edge over Englehart (just my own personal taste), but Englehart brought Beast onto the team, and I always loved Beast as an Avenger. If only Stern had brought Spidey in, instead of just flirting with the idea...
ReplyDeleteMike Wilson
Hmmm...the Avengers is the topic and anything goes...how about line-up changes? They've had a few of those haven't they?
ReplyDeleteWell Doug, I guess my "missed it by that much" moment comes courtesy of your boy Mr. Gyrich, in, what was it, #181? When he announces the Falcon as the final member of the new line-up and Hawkeye goes "Whaaa?" Classic.
But my all-time favorite still has to be the kooky quartet. Hawk trying to upstage Cap. Hawk trying to outdo Pietro. Hawk putting the moves on Wanda - great character moments during that run.
Hawkeye pretty much took over my post didn't he?
Tom
I agree with Edo regarding the strength of the Michelinie run. Truly some classic stories therein, story and art. Issue 181 alone makes quite an impact...
ReplyDeleteAs to the challenge today: I will toss out the logo into consideration. The original Avengers logo is fun, in the spirit of the original Fantastic Four logo. Often a book's original logo tends to remain my favorite (Amazing Spider-man, of course, and with the more intricate original webbing). Yet in the case of Avengers, the best logo in my eye is the 'big A' that topped off those great covers in the Bronze Age. It is dramatic,and forceful with that arrow. Plus,it makes a memorable insignia if only the first letter in said logo is depicted. It hung over the Avengers/Defenders war, Celestial Madonna, Ultron, Korvac, and so much more. Now, with the movie exposure, that logo could become as popularly familiar as a certain Dark Knight's...
Oh man, Stern vs. Englehart... I think Englehart gets the slightest edge with the Perez issues following the Celestial Madonna saga, but "Under Siege" is my favorite Avengers story. It's lean and mean, all killer no filler. Unfortunately, Stern's run is marred by Milgrom's art and a few did issues (the Eternals stuff just drags).
ReplyDeleteHow about Avengers artists? Kirby's the best, just not on Avengers. Don Heck deserves more credit than he gets. Neal Adams, Sal Buscema, Bob Brown, John Byrne, Steve Epting, Alan Davis, and Kieron Dwyer all did good work. Still, my 2 defining Avengers artists are John Buscema and George Perez. Buscema was an expert storyteller who could ground the fantastic proceedings with an acute sense of anatomy. He drew a lot of my favorite Avengers comics. Perez, however, can juggle an unwieldy cast and delineate super-hero action better than almost anyone. George Perez is my top Avengers artist.
- Mike Loughlin
Hiya,
ReplyDeleteThis may seem like a strange criteria for liking a writer, but in a team book like the Avengers I believe it is a necessity.
One Bronze Age writer, one that I believe we all respect, seemed to be of the belief that if a character was in the panel, then the character had to have something to say. Now that's alright if there are just a couple of individuals talking. But increase that number and things got a little silly with multiple comments regarding the same thing.
Why did I like Englehart, because he knew when a character should keep their mouths shut.
Well, that in addition to the plots, character development and all that other stuff.
pfgavigan
To the poster stating that Stern's run was "marred by Milgrom's art" I gotta say - shameful post. The man has accomplished quite a bit in his field. Can you claim the same?
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