Thursday, February 25, 2016

Guests Review - Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk

This is the 600th Review to Appear on the Bronze Age Babies




 Doug: Now here's a first on the BAB, and after 6 1/2 years one shouldn't take a statement like that lightly! Today we feature not just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill partner review. Oh, no. Today, it's a Three-for-all! That's right -- several weeks ago the merits of the Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk treasury edition were being sung from the highest peaks when three of our stalwart commenters rose to the occasion and said "We'll review it!" You go right ahead boys. And you know what? They did! Enjoy this water cooler conversation between Edo Bosnar, Humanbelly, and Mike Loughlin -- we think it'll be a fun ride.




Batman vs. The Incredible Hulk (DC Special Series, Vol. 5, No. 27, Fall 1981)
"The Monster and the Madman!" 
Len Wein-Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez/Dick Giordano

Prologue

In the middle of a hot and humid summer in Gotham City, people’s dreams and nightmares are becoming real, even when they’re not sleeping. In a waterfront warehouse, the Joker and his goons are preparing for a heist. The Joker is talking to someone off panel who is in great pain and really needs whatever Joker and the gang are going to steal. As they depart, the Joker kills one of his henchmen for suggesting that he might be afraid of that mysterious someone in the warehouse…


Humanbelly: Ha! That "hot & humid" summer that Len so aptly describes? This is a big ol' nit-pick, yes, but the poor suffering sleeper is drawn slumbering in the heat under a sheet AND blanket-! The words are good, the pictures are more than good-- but the editing is asleep at the switch. It's a small but obvious incongruity that pulls a reader a little bit out of the story right at the outset, and could easily have been caught.

Mike Loughlin: I never caught that! I was about to No-prize it away by saying the a.c. was on and too high, but let me quote panel 2: “for months now [he] has been talking about buying an air-conditioner – and is now paying the price of his procrastination.” D’oh!

Edo Bosnar: Yeah, I know all too well what hot & humid nights are like – there’s no way I’d be snuggled up in bed like that guy

HB: One of the huge drawbacks of Marvel Zuvembihood was having no clue who Jose Luis Garcia Lopez was. While there are some quibbles with the art in this book later on, NONE of them have to do with this man's ability as an artist and visual storyteller! His work here often comes across as the genetically-blessed artistic love-child of Neal Adams and Gene Colan. . . along with a helpful Steve Ditko and Ross Andru lurking in the family tree. The splash page and prologue set the visual tone wonderfully-- but my favorite panel here is the nightmare-ized movie theater on page three: an artist simply surrendering to the fun of what he's drawing. I might submit, though, that most horrifying element in that image is the inexplicable, eye-clenching outfit that the young lady is wearing. . . unless. . . that, too, is part of the nightmare-??

ML: Yikes! Maybe it from the movie and she’s cos-playing? “It Came from 1981!” “Dawn of the Fashion-Disaster Decade!” “Clash of the Clothing!”

EB: Heh, speaking of ‘80s fashions, outside of those silly boots, her outfit actually compares favorably to some of the stuff I recall in my H.S. and early college years, like parachute pants, the upturned collars and the copiously gelled (my lord, the gel!) and elaborately coiffed hair. Anyway, my favorite part of that image? The ape-like ghoul munching on their popcorn.

ML: Anyway, Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez is one of the best artists to grace the medium. It’s a shame he didn’t do more work for Marvel or an independent publisher, but to me his art *is* DC. I grew up in the ‘80s, a time when most of DC’s licensed product art was done by Garcia-Lopez and his artistic partner on Batman vs. Hulk, Dick Giordano. T-shirts, action figure box art, lunch boxes, underoos – before I was an avid comic book reader, I came to these characters through those aforementioned avenues. Garcia-Lopez’s style is remarkably clean, slick, and aesthetically pleasing. It’s a shame he didn’t have a long run on a popular series (why oh why was he not on Superman after Curt Swan left? Or John Byrne?). He has action chops to spare, as we’ll see in the next chapter.

Chapter 1: “When Wakes the Behemoth…!”

The story opens in a large busy lab in the Gotham City branch of Wayne Research. Bruce Banner, under a fake name, has been working there as a sort of orderly, doing odd jobs so he can get a closer look at something called a gamma-gun, which he believes can cure him of being the Hulk. Suddenly, he notices that everyone in the lab, himself included, is beginning to laugh uncontrollably, so thinking fast, he puts on a radiation suit that has its own air supply. Right then, the Joker and his thugs bust into the lab and go after the gamma-gun. Banner runs to hit the alarm, but the Joker’s men knock him down. The effect is predictable for long-time comics readers, as they now have to deal with a very irate Hulk. He begins trashing the lab, and while the Joker’s men try to sneak out with the gamma-gun, they’re stopped by none other than the Batman! After the ensuing melee, in which Batman takes out the thugs, the gamma-gun ends up in the Hulk’s hands. Before Batman can do or say anything, the Joker sweet-talks him into giving him the gun and attacking Batman. The confrontation has a rather unbelievable outcome, i.e., Batman takes out the Hulk with a combination of gas pellets and well-placed kick to the gut. The Joker and his men abscond with the gamma-gun in the meantime, but Batman loses them in pursuit, as the layout of the streets and alleys around the building has somehow been changed into a maze. He returns to the lab as Bruce Wayne, where the groggy Hulk changes back to Banner. Instead of sending him packing, Wayne offers him a job to make a replacement gamma-gun.

 

ML: Holy ‘70s tv! Bruce working an odd job in a research facility, using a “David B____” alias? Calling Hulk “…the raging beast that dwells within?” That tickles this reader’s nostalgia bone something fierce, but this comic came out in 1981. These little nods were contemporary. It’s too bad we don’t have Batman calling anyone “old chum” or an appearance by King Tut.

HB: I wonder if the Joker is one of those characters who "write themselves"? It seems like Len Wein channels him from the get-go, and is clearly the character he enjoys the most throughout. This is a little bit unfortunate since, of course, Banner & Hulk ARE Len's characters. Hulk seems on-point, for the most part, but Banner tends to sound rather flat throughout the book-- and even decidedly out of character at points. And despite how brilliant his work is, Lopez also doesn't seem to capture Bruce's look, somehow. So. . . I never quite believe it's Bruce, really, y'know? But ohhhhh boy, does he draw a good Hulk! Page 9 is just about poster-worthy.

ML: All due respect to Herb Trimpe and Sal Buscema, the JL G-L Hulk is my favorite Bronze Age Hulk. He draws the Green Goliath as a massive troglodyte who’s always angry. The body language is also excellent; Hulk is a lumbering brute always charging, punching, and swinging his arms around. Batman vs. Hulk is an absurd match-up, and JL G-L sells it by contrasting the Hulk’s actions with Batman’s leaping, avoiding, and getting hits in when he can. Well, he sells it until – that scene.

EB: I share your admiration for the nonpareil craftsmanship of Garcia-Lopez, but he still doesn’t topple Sal as my favorite Hulk artist…

HB: Yes, I agree completely about Bats' swift kick to the Hulk's breadbasket. Unexpected or not, that "Hhuuunff!!" is just never gonna happen according to this character's established history (Although, again, it's drawn great--!).

ML: Here it is, the scene that threatens to break the entire comic. I’m a Hulk fan, first and foremost, so I don’t like seeing my favorite character go down in a fight. Especially to a ‘puny human!’ I could accept it, however, if not for the fact that Batman bests him physically. Batman has gadgets, scientific know-how, fighting prowess, detecting skills, and more money than the entire Fortune 500. On the other hand, the Hulk is a creature of pure brute strength. That’s all he’s got. The people who made this comic could have had Batman force the Hulk to take a breath in a number of other ways: throw a flash grenade at him to startle him with the light, use sneezing powder, say ‘Hulk- knock, knock’ knowing he can’t resist replying ‘who there?’ Anything that doesn’t tear the Hulk down so badly. If not for the fact that there were so many gorgeous Garcia-Lopez/Giordano pages left to drool over, I would have closed the comic right here.

HB: And my primary art quibble is on display in this first chapter. Pages 13-15 in particular--- almost no backgrounds whatsoever! Fantastic action w/ the figures. . . but it's all taking place in a particularly chroma-challenged limbo! White backgrounds, yellow backgrounds? Tangerine backgrounds?? PINK backgrounds??? This strikes me as a "book's gotta get done fast" problem, as opposed to a Garcia-Lopez problem. But it has the effect of generally leaving many scenes feeling ungrounded or visually unfinished.

ML: Indeed. The fight choreography and facial expressions work beautifully – check out the Joker’s evil glee on page 16!- but the reader loses a sense of place during the fight.


ML: I find it highly unlikely that security would let Bruce Wayne just stroll in and get close to the Hulk, or let him talk to Banner, or let him offer the half-naked scientist a job! This scene strikes me as one that could feature post-Crisis Lex Luthor in Bruce Wayne’s place. Does Wayne bribe the cops to let him do whatever he wants at a crime scene, or take suspects home with him?

Chapter 2: “When Dreams Won’t Come!”

Back at their hideout, Joker and his men set up the gamma-gun and fire it at their ‘client,’ who ends up being none other than the Shaper of Worlds. As he absorbs the gun’s energy, he goes into some lengthy exposition, recounting that during his travels through the universe the radiation from a nova he passed robbed him of his ability to absorb dreams – so he made his way to Earth, created a warehouse to disguise his spacecraft and started looking for a mind to help him restore his powers, and in the process he found that the Joker’s mind was unique in the universe (!). They struck a bargain: the Joker helps him, and he gives the Joker pretty much whatever he wants. However, it turns out that the T-gun is useless, and the Shaper exclaims that he may lose his mind. The Joker is now in a bit of a quandary as to what his next move should be.


HB: Well-- the plot is dumb. I mean, there's just no way around that-- but I suppose that's sort of a given with Special Events like this. We spend 20 pages in a dire search and struggle over the Gamma-Gun (Really? Gamma-Gun?? Because we don't already have a lifetime supply of those littering the landscape in Greenskin's own book??), and then-- whoopsi-foozle-- the darned thing didn't work after all! It's a classic Hitchcock Maguffin-- the thing that no one cares about that's necessary to get the story a-movin'. It's just used rather artlessly in this case.

ML: Zzzzzzz… wha-? Oh, sorry, the Shaper of Worlds was talking. Why did Wein go with the uninspired baddie? The Hulk’s rogue gallery might not stack up against Batman’s, but they could have done so much better.

HB: Ha-- and the panel on page 25, w/ the Joker biting his lip? Oh, that would be a MUST for any Joker image montage or collage! That Joker--- what a criminal mastermind-- why, he's stealing this very book right out from under Hulk & Bats! 

ML: The Joker biting his lip is one of my favorite panels of all time. It’s one of the few times the reader gets a feeling that the Joker is not in control of the situation. In fact, that seems to be a hallmark of the modern Joker, being two steps ahead of everyone until Batman thwarts his schemes.

ML: I think the Joker is every writer’s favorite villain. He’s a lot of fun, gets the best lines, and his schemes aren’t as hard to set up as the Riddler’s.

EB: While I agree that the Leader probably should have been the go-to Hulk villain for this one, I don’t think the Shaper was necessarily a bad choice. I think it made it easier for Wein to find a way to make the unlikely Batman/Hulk team-up occur. However, as noted in the summary, the exposition here is really drawn out. So yeah, Joker pretty much steals the show here.

Chapter 3: “When the Sea Churns Green…!”

We see a tanker belonging to Wayne Enterprises is anchored just beyond the 3-mile mark. The interior has been refitted into a giant, super-sophisticated lab in which Banner has been tirelessly leading the research. The ever-trusty Alfred is on hand to keep an eye on him and makes sure he’s calm and comfortable. The scene then switches to Batman visiting a number of underworld haunts to find any information on where the Joker might be hiding out, and finally comes up with a solid lead. Back on the tanker, several helicopters land, and a man identifying himself as a USAF colonel says the government wants them to apprehend Banner. Alfred protests, and the soldiers rough him up a bit, which leads the “colonel” to blurt out that they were supposed to make this look like a proper military operation. Banner, overhearing, gets enraged with – again – predictable results. The fake troops try to stop him, which includes using an industrial-strength taser, but to no avail. The “colonel” thinks they need some kind of bigger monster to take him out, and all of a sudden this huge pasty creature appears. It seems impervious to Hulk’s punches, and eventually just absorbs him into its belly, which then turns into an elastic cage that he can’t break out of. The “troops” take the blob monster with the captive Hulk away on their ‘copter, after which Commissioner Gordon shows up, as does Batman. A call to General Ross confirms that this was indeed not a USAF operation. But Batman says he knows who was behind it all.


HB: Len Wein seriously drops the ball with Banner in the first scene of this chapter, which I had a hard time getting past. A scientist accidentally drops a small piece of equipment, and Bruce launches into a full Super-Villain outburst ("You clumsy oaf!", etc, etc). It's ugly, it's forced, and it's wildly out of character for the Bruce Banner that Len himself had written for several years. Banner immediately becomes an unsympathetic pill--- not what you want for the book's co-star.

ML: Out-of-character he may be, but the changes in Banner’s body language and the green tint to his skin when he gets mad are highly effective indicators of the stress he’s under.

EB: Yeah, I didn’t find the Banner outburst here off-putting. The panels explain that he’d been working non-stop for a few days, so it wasn’t too much of a stretch to see him snap. That said, I totally agree with HB about his super-villainesque insults (if the lab-guy was younger, we could have even been treated to an “incompetent whelp!” or something like that). A simple “Hey! Be careful with that!” would have sufficed.

ML: It’s nice to get a pure Batman sequence. Once again, JL G-L keeps the action moving until he has to pause. Batman standing over the unconscious thugs while stroking his chin looks great, but the matchbook clue is just lazy. How many times has this scene been repeated in comics or movies? Does no one use a lighter?

HB: Rubber Mask Over Cowl #1-- the bum in the bar. Do you suppose artists had to avert their gaze in embarrassment every time they drew this?

ML: My no-prize explanation is Reed Richards licensed unstable molecules to Acme Rubber Mask Co. Now that Beast goes around blue and furry all the time, Batman’s their best customer.

HB: In several instances, I'm struck by the wonderful faces that Jose' creates for the Hulk. They're some of the most truly life-like & expressive I've ever seen. Page 35, top right panel-- that's a believable person, y'know?


HB: And I'm gonna say that I do love the doughy cage-android for a couple of reasons. #1, it looks like Steve Ditko sneaked into the studio sometime after midnight and drew him into all of the scenes, then ran away laughing madly. #2, the android is a strong, strong reminder of Incredible Hulk #'s 115-117, where the Leader used both an unbreakable, doughy cage AND unbreakable android to perpetually subdue ol' Greenskin. Hmmm-- now, why wasn't the Leader used in this story in the first place. . . ? His impatient snottiness combined with the Joker's incessant pestering-- oh, that would have been SO much better-!


HB: And finally-- ONE PANEL for Thunderbolt Ross AND Doc Samson?? So-- really, this is just a Batman story with the Hulk as a guest-star, isn't it? Daggone it---

ML: The Ditko comparison is spot-on. In Tales to Astonish #63, the Hulk battled the Leader’s sponge-rubber creation, the Humanoid. I also wish Wein had gone with the Leader. At least there would be a personal connection between both heroes and villains. The gamma gun could have been used to fuel his latest device, which unintentionally gives the Joker reality-warping power or something. As we’ve seen, the plot mechanics are secondary to the set pieces in this comic.

EB: I love that blob-monster, but I have to say that it’s part of the plot-hole/storytelling in this book that bothers me the most; obviously, it’s another case (like that street-maze that confounded Batman in the first chapter) of the Shaper helping the Joker and his men out, using his reality-warping and wish-fulfilling powers. However, in his exposition, the Shaper tells us his powers are blinking out and he’s actually in pain, etc., etc., yet he’s still able to apparently (telepathically, cosmically?) monitor the activities of his hirelings and toss them a little deus ex machina when things get thick.

ML: The call to Ross and Samson is so perfunctory. If you think the Hulk is only a guest-star now, just wait until the climax!


Chapter 4: “When the Shaper Commands…!”

At their hideout again, the Joker and his men present the Hulk to the Shaper, who at first doesn’t understand why they brought him. Joker explains that his alter-ego Banner can perhaps adjust the gamma-gun. However, the imprisoned Hulk completely flips out and manages to tear the blob monster apart and heads for the Shaper, just as the latter claims that madness is overcoming him. A bunch of nightmarish manifestations appear to confront the Hulk, which he smashes, but then something odd happens, as both of them grow calm. The Shaper realizes that the Hulk’s unique gamma radiation somehow helps him. The Hulk, meanwhile, says he feels tired and then bursts out of the warehouse. Shaper tells the Joker he has to find Hulk and bring him back. This leads the Joker to commandeer the Bat-signal to summon his arch-nemesis. He convinces Batman that they should conclude a temporary truce and work together to find the Hulk, so they indeed begin looking for him throughout Gotham. They do eventually find him, and when the Hulk leaps into the air to escape them, Batman fastens a line around the Hulk’s ankle and lets himself get propelled along with the jolly green giant. They land in a parking garage, and this leads to another confrontation that again stretches the otherwise indulgent suspension of disbelief most comic book fans have (like Batman avoiding being crushed by a car hurled at him by jumping and breaking through both side-door windows). Batman throws a smoke-bomb to keep the Hulk from finding him, and the Hulk, in a rage, ends up demolishing the parking garage. The Joker then shows up, and is unsurprised when Batman emerges from it largely unscathed (he dove under some cross-beams that sheltered him from the rubble). The Hulk, meanwhile, is walking through an alley, and stumbles upon a blind man who asks him if he needs a friend. He calms the Hulk a bit in their ensuing conversation, and then the Joker suddenly shows up and tells the Hulk he should come with him. The Hulk balks initially, but the blind man tells him he needs to trust the Joker, as it may change his life. The two walk off together, and we learn that the blind man is actually a cleverly-disguised Batman (wearing one of those amazing rubber masks).

ML: I’m not too impressed with the story, but some of the little touches are solid. I especially like how the Hulk gets out of the blob monster cage: the Joker mentions Banner, and it’s his hatred of his alter ego that gets him furious enough to break free.

HB: Again, the dynamic art really is shouldering a lot of the entertainment burden, isn't it? We'll go through several pages of action and event, and the resolution is that the actual plot is only furthered the tiniest inch. All that effort and angst to get Banner/Hulk to the Shaper (for a reason that never sees fruition, really), and the result is that we discover the Hulk's presence does the same thing that the Gamma Gun would-- before the Hulk leaps away again. We're on page 42, and from a practical standpoint (and the Shaper's) we're exactly where we were at the end of page 26. This is serial writing in a non-serial format. Not givin' Len high marks here.

ML: Despite a wonky plot, I like seeing Batman forced to work with the Joker. Len Wein gets in more of his snappy Joker dialogue, easily the best part of the writing in this issue.

HB: In the neat little "calming down" sequence on page 41, the Hulk ends up bearing a strong resemblance to. . . John Travolta?? Man, that guy left his mark everywhere back then, didn't he?

ML: “Puny human! Up nose with rubber hose!”

HB: The plaus-o-bilitron, as you mentioned, is indeed off the charts on several scores in this chapter (the cool dive through the car windows, the second no-way rubber mask) but the one that I couldn't get past was Bats' being towed along Hulks' leap-path via a bat-line. There's nothing survivable in this scenario. There is nothing breaking his fall, he's not flying, he's not landing on anything other than concrete, he's not "rolling" with it-- and he's easily 120' up at the moment we see him (coming down from several hundred, very likely). He makes an inane comment about angling his descent like the Hulk's-- which actually calls attention to the absurdity rather than mitigate it. Gnrgh-- BATMAN IS NOT SUPER, fellas!

ML: Agreed, but Batman jumping through the car is so cool and Garcia-Lopez totally – GASP! Oh no… No! I just noticed a flaw in the art! When Batman dives through the car, his cape comes out billowed. If he just jumped through a small space, wouldn’t his cape have to be clinging to his body to get through? Say it ain’t so, Jose Luis! I… I need to sit down…

HB: My biggest problem of all, though, is that the Hulk expressly states twice in this chapter how he hates it when humans twist their words and lie to him. This is a fundamental aspect of the Hulk's character, because even he realizes how gullible he himself can be. So, what is the ultimate tactic Bats and Joker use to get the Hulk to work toward their ends? They deceive him, twist their words, and lie to him. And it's obviously seen as the right (or at least most prudent) solution. This reduces the Hulk's character even further into the realm of interesting plot device rather than actual person. I... hate that.

ML: I do like the device of having Batman disguise himself so as not to trigger Hulk’s rage. That Acme Mask Co. does quality work. I was surprised to see the Hulk tell an innocent (as far as he knows), “Now little man – you die!” I’m used to “Hulk smash,” not actual death threats to a person not actively threatening the Green Goliath. It actually fits with out-of-character Banner calling people names. The deceit is regrettable, though. It makes the Incredible Hulk, strongest creature on Earth and titular co-star of this oversized extravaganza, a world-class chump.

EB: No arguments from me as far as your criticisms go. The strongest part of this section was the Batman/Joker interaction (I got a chuckle out of that one scene in the montage of their search for the Hulk in which the Joker is checking to see if he’s hiding in a garbage can). But this is where I think the Hulk is really sidelined more than anywhere else in the book. He just becomes grist for the Bats/Joker interplay, and it’s a bit off-putting to see Bats help a villain engage in some subterfuge at the expense of a fellow good guy, unstable and flawed as he may be.


Chapter 5: “When Madness Reigns…!”

As the Joker and Hulk approach the warehouse, which has these odd energy bands emanating from it, Joker tells Hulk to go in alone, which shocks Batman, who was following them. He tells Joker off (and gives him a b****-slap for good measure) and then goes to join the Hulk, who seems generally unperturbed now given his previous hostility, just saying that he thought Batman was dead. Suddenly they are attacked by some of their main adversaries. However, these are just more of the manifestations generated by the Shaper, and they turn into butterflies or lizards when punched. When they reach the door to the warehouse, they can’t enter because there is some sort of force-field. This gets the Hulk really, really angry, and he charges it with all of his might – and gets through, as there is a blinding flash of light. Afterward, Banner’s unconscious form can be seen lying on the floor, and the Shaper is feeling fine. He apparently absorbed enough of Hulk’s gamma radiation to restore his health. Now the Joker shows up and demands that the Shaper live up to his end of the bargain. Batman tries to put a stop to this, but to no avail. The Shaper honors his deal, and gives the Joker god-like power. Joker wills himself to become king of the world. Banner wakes up in the meantime and pleads with the Shaper to put a stop to this, but the Shaper brushes him off. Banner becomes righteously enraged, and turns into the Hulk again, but when he charges, the Shaper makes him disappear. In Gotham, the Joker is have a field day, molding the world into his image (and turning Batman into a corpulent clown). The Hulk appears, and unsuccessfully tries to punch the Joker, and also gets turned into a clown for his effort. At this point, Batman begins to taunt the Joker, asking him if such petty changes are the best he can do. So over the next 3 pages the Joker begins altering reality in different ways but Batman keeps challenging him to do better, until the Joker finally has an apparent nervous breakdown and passes out. Everything goes back to normal, and the Shaper, saying the bargain has been fulfilled, departs from Earth. In the epilogue, Batman, Banner and Commissioner Gordon look on as the Joker, committed to a psychiatric ward, dreams a dream of ruling Earth. Banner slips away, and Batman tells the Commissioner to wait before putting an APB out on him, saying they owe him a chance to get away and try to “find whatever he’s looking for.”


ML: Fun fact: in his long, storied career, the great Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez has drawn exactly 7 Marvel characters: the Hulk/ Bruce Banner, The Shaper of Worlds, Thunderbolt Ross, Doc Samson, The Leader, Rhino, and Abomination.

HB: While I appreciate the effort ('cause I do think it was there), this whole shifting dreamscape showdown falls terribly flat for me. Here's why:


  1. Most of the Joker's " unique mind in the universe" world-mods (see how I used a current video gamer reference there? Yeah?) are, frankly, darned cliché'. We see Wonderland, Salvadore Dali, MC Escher, Picasso (Abstract Expressionism, is it?), and Hieronymus Bosch as the influences that stretch the Joker's creative ingenuity to the breaking point. And I'm thinking--- "that's it--?" 'Cause those are generally the go-to visual elements when someone wants to depict a Weird, Crazy, Disturbingly Warped setting in a dream or vision or whatever. I mean-- they show up in old, OLD Warner Brothers cartoons, even. They're a common short-hand, really. Which once again tells me loudly that this book was done with a publisher standing nearby with a loud time-clock ticking away. (Probably a squishy, Dali-influenced one. . . )
  2. Lack of detailed backgrounds takes even further punch out of the desired alien/weird effect necessary to put this over. Again-- not enough time to put more thought or effort into the book.
  3. Uhm-- so to save the day, the Hulk's strength is useless; Batman's detective skills and physical prowess and tech are worthless. Ultimately, Batman uses transparent, rudimentary, soft-bullying psychology to cause the Joker to. . . have a fatal slip of the tongue-???? (Very nearly identical to the slip of the tongue that caused the villain's downfall in Hulk #155, mind you-- so it's not even clever or original.) To say this is unsatisfying is a wild understatement. For one final time it simply screams, "get the thing wrapped up somehow so we can get it to the printers-- I don't CARE who the book was supposed to be about!"



HB: And then we get the stock ending from the TV show—a la The Fugitive. Because. . . we should just abandon the promising scientific work that Bruce was onto right before he was kidnapped? NOTHING about that thread of this plot had changed at all-- it was simply interrupted by bad-guys machinations.

ML: Batman agrees that the Joker’s rewriting of reality isn’t all that original; he even calls him out on it in the comic! This reader knows better than to argue with the Dark Knight (not to mention the Human Belly!) but I’m glad we are treated to Garcia-Lopez’s homages. Even though he’s drawing super-heroes, JL G-L’s artwork keeps a foot in the plausible- his anatomy and composition create believable characters and environments. Seeing him break down reality, even if the breakdown contains derivative elements, is fun. I think the lack of background enhances the unreal nature of the proceedings. It’s like a Ditko Dr. Strange dimension. JL G-L takes it a step further by making the only ground the characters can stand on curvy and unstable. There all kinds of great touches, my favorite being the transitions on page 62. Standard comic book Joker to Picasso to ‘70s album cover- I can’t help but think JL G-L had a good time with this part of the book.


ML: Stray observations: I like how Bat-clown looks ridiculous, but somehow Batman retains his dignity. JL G-L goes Neal Adams for a panel on page 59, when he has the character look at the reader with a grumpy face and point. The Hulk’s confusion when his punch has no effect on the Joker is priceless.

EB: Oh, man, I love those panels where Garcia-Lopez just went crazy. The art homages are a visual treat, as are the clown-versions of Batman and Hulk.

ML: The comic’s biggest sin is how little Hulk does in the climax. Len Wein of 1981, I offer up a (slightly) better ending: Batman challenges Joker to create more original reality warps. While the Shaper feeds the Joker power, his concentration is on the Joker alone. Joker’s obsession with beating Batman takes over, causing him to half ignore the Hulk. Hulk can’t touch the Joker, but he slips out of the localized reality warp enough to smash the Shaper. The resulting psychic feedback kayos the Joker. His debt to the Joker fulfilled, the Shaper says “Nuts to this” and takes off. Cue semi-nonsensical ending.

HB: Wow-- what a strange place this re-examination has put me in! I love the art about 10 times more than I realized before--- whereas the writing/plot has exposed unexpected raw nerves. And overall effect is that it's all still a fairly enjoyable romp that becomes, sadly, pretty easily forgettable. I kinda like it-- but am not in love with it, y'know? 

ML: Ultimately, Batman vs. the Incredible Hulk functions best as a showcase for Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez’s artwork. It’s worth buying and leafing through just to see how smoothly and beautifully he illustrates the characters and set-pieces. There’s no getting around the fact that even a well-told Batman/ Hulk crossover is going to be a trifle, but I wish Len Wein had done a better job incorporating the Hulk into the story (especially given how many pages he had to work with!). How much the reader enjoys the comic depends on whether or not they need substance amidst some extremely impressive flash.

EB: I have to say in conclusion that I’m a little more charitably inclined toward this book than either of you. For all of its flaws/plot-holes, I have to say that even after the second reading I still rather enjoyed it overall. The fact is that all of these company cross-overs suffer from having to devise a way to bring the heroes together, and it usually seems at least a bit forced (much as I liked it, the Avengers/JLA crossover is really guilty of this). I think the only crossovers that had a really ‘natural’ feel to them are the excellent Batman & Captain America and possibly the X-men/New Teen Titans.


EB: Otherwise, I’ll readily agree that a big part of my enjoyment of this one is the stunningly beautiful art. Echoing Mike’s comments in the first section above, I think it’s truly a shame that Garcia-Lopez never had a run (10-12 issues at least) on a Marvel title, preferably something with lots of heroes in it, like Avengers or Defenders (i.e., more work with the Hulk, and seeing him do Dr. Strange, Val, Nighthawk, Hellcat and the rest would have been a real treat).
 



25 comments:

Martinex1 said...

Excellent review gents! A ton of fun to read. I have to agree with you on the art; the talent of Garcia-Lopez is astounding. When I first opened the post, I saw the movie scene panel and had an immediate liking to it. Such a mix of style but all his own. I too would have loved to see more Marvel work by him. It seems the only other G-L art outside of DC that I am aware is an issue of Nexus for First Comics.

It is interesting as I read your review how much this tale would have benefitted from stronger editorial guidance. Just your brief comments, if given the chance, would have influenced a better, more consistent, and impactful story. Who did edit it? Was Len given full control? It seems like a summer movie blockbuster where all the money was spent on special effects when a simple re-read of the script may have been prudent. You had me thinking more about the Leader rewrite than the actual story at hand.

And yes the kick to the gut was a kick to the gut. I would have liked to have seen Bats bounce off, and as the Hulk opens his mouth to say "Puny pointy ears," or "Hey Dark Guy", releases his breadth. C'mon the Hulk has to have some kind of nickname for Batman!

Thanks for sharing duties, like I said it was very enjoyable.

Doug said...

I'm very pleased that a guest review is a milestone post for us. As we've said a gazillion times, it's this community that has developed that makes this site a welcoming place every day. So that some of our readers got together and wrote this for the enjoyment of all seems fitting. Thanks, guys!

A Blogger note (of which I have no knowledge or solution...) - I noticed on my phone this morning that today's post is the only one that appeared, and it looks like that's true on the blog. We have the settings such that our last 9 posts should appear on your portable device and on the computer screen. This has happened before a few times. Other than blaming it on gremlins, I got nothing.

Doug

J.A. Morris said...

Nice review from everyone, congratulations to Karen and Doug and reaching this milestone!

I agree about Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez art here, it's fantastic. But the 9-10 year old version of me didn't buy this after thumbing through it at People's Drug. Because Batman beating the Hulk with gas pellets and a kick in the gut was silly. As was the Shaper's presence in the story.

Anonymous said...

Enjoyed that a lot - you three did a good job. Hope to read more in future (you just need a snappy name - the three stooges, wise monkeys or some such).

Anyway - works best as a showcase for Garcia-Lopez, huh? Sounds good to me - what more do you want from a comic?
Especially one of these cross company team ups, which never seemed to have much thought put into them.

Never bothered me whether Garcia-Lopez was at DC or Marvel so long as he was around doing something, and DC seemed to keep him busy. Loved the westerns.

-sean

Humanbelly said...

Boy, I'm afraid this 600th review may have been longer than the previous 599 combined. . . ! I kept scrolling. . . and scrolling. . . nary an end in sight. . .

Mike, edo? We did indeed have a most enjoyable time compiling it, though, am I right? Ah, you guys're the best-!

HB

Doug said...

Hence, my question before I laid it out if you fellas envisioned it as a 1-post or a 2-post review. ;)

The old man knows his blogging...

But I think it looks great, and I'm glad it is all in one place with those magnificent art samples. You guys did a fabulous job!

Doug

Anonymous said...

Cool review, guys. This comic was never even on my radar as a kid (though I loved Batman back then); in fact, the only intercompany x-over I've read is the (much later) JLA/Avengers x-over, which was good but not as good as I'd anticipated. I always wanted to read the Spidey/Superman x-over, but I never got around to it.

I agree on the Garcia-Lopez praise. He would've been great on a long-running series, but in his Modern Masters book, Garcia-Lopez himself said he was always a bit too slow of an artist to sustain a monthly book...whenever he tried, he always ended up falling behind.

Mike Wilson

Edo Bosnar said...

Thanks for the comments, and thanks especially to Doug for (as usual) posting this monster and for the compliments (he says blushing).
Yeah, HB, this was a fun one to do...

Martinex, since you wondered about Garcia-Lopez doing work outside of DC, he pretty much got his start on the US market doing some romance stories for Charlton. Jacque Nodell, who runs the romance comics blog Sequential Crush conducted an interview with him some years ago, and also posted a review of one of the stories he drew from the late 1960s.
I also happen to know (because I have the book in question) that he drew one of the stories in the first issue of Starstream, which was an anthology series published by Whitman that featured comic adaptations of SF short stories.

Martinex1 said...

Thanks for the links Edo. That is a great interview. We don't discuss romance comics much, and I had no idea he did that work. Again, thanks for the review. I have to say the clown Batman still looks daunting.

pfgavigan said...

Hiya,


Hey Martinex1, according to what I could find online Al Milgrom was the editor of this book. Now, as I said, that's according to what I could find online. If I recall correctly, and I do, both Marvel and DC exercised editorial control over these crossovers with the company that produced the work calling most of the creative shots while the editor at the other company having veto power during the plotting and development stages.

In short, if the consulting (for lack of a better term) editor felt that the plot was incredibly lame or that the characters were behaving in a manner inconsistent with their history then they could, and should, demand that changes be made.

This was the preexisting agreement between the companies and would later have great importance. Right now I'm without information regarding what aspect Milgrom was playing here, the producing editor or the consulting editor. Does anyone else know?

As for my personal recollections regarding this issue, well, I picked it up several times and I put it back several times. I thought that the story reflected one of Wein's greatest weaknesses as a writer, a more than occasional laziness regarding the plot. Bruce Banner was more like his television counterpart than I felt comfortable with and his presence seemed to be more because it was required than an integral part of the story line.

As for the artwork, while I do enjoy Garcia-Lopez when it comes to the DC aspects of this work, I think I probably fall into the minority as I feel that he seems to have a less certain hand with the Marvelverse characters. For me, and this is just my opinion, there's a strange sense of not quite rightness regarding the Hulk. Now this might just be because there had been a very limited number of pencilers on the Hulk comic at this point, I believe Sal Buscema was still the regular artist at the time. Maybe I was simply used to a certain look in regards to the Green Goliath when this treasury edition was released and was simply unwilling to accept a different version.

Who knows? Maybe it simply comes down to nobody can please everybody and that's not a bad thing. Like I stated earlier, I passed on adding this production to my collection and have never regretted it. Maybe I should take a second look.

Seeya,

pfgavigan

Karen said...

Nice work fellas! Our first three-person review, and it happens to be our 600th review -dear Lord, have we actually done 600 reviews? I keep telling Doug we have to find some way to get paid for this...

I never had this book but I have seen that panel on the net before, and it just seems so ridiculous. It makes me reconsider something I just wrote for one of our Dark Knight reviews though: perhaps Batman's current status of invincibility -the idea that he can defeat anyone, given time -really started with the Hulk and not with his beating Superman in the Dark Knight!

Seriously, how does he not break his foot doing that?
Then again, it's a comic book.

Humanbelly said...

I checked the indica (is that the right word for the fine-print box on the first page?), when I picked the book up, and it is definitely a DC production-- which is certainly born out by the unequal aspect of the Hulk's co-star status. Hmm, and Al Milgrom IIRC was a get-along-with-folks kind of guy. . . certainly not a J Jonah Jameson type of editor who would fight tooth and claw to make sure his characters were given full shrift.

Y'know pfg-- I wonder if part of the effect of the Hulk not looking right to you might have more to do with the decidedly "DC" color palette we mentioned in the review? The soft, friendly, baby-blanket pastels (like in Action Comics or Superboy, say) that filled those panels that were lacking in background? I just never, ever think of the Hulk's green being backed with those kinds of "enh" shades, y'know? And it does create a whole feeling of slightly-offness. . .

HB

Edo Bosnar said...

PFG, as HB notes, this was a DC publication: specifically, the indicia cites the title as "DC Special Series #27," and obviously the creative team (Wein, Garcia-Lopez and Giordano) were all DC staffers at the time.
As to the editor, according to the credits in the book itself, the editor was actually Dick Giordano. Milgrom and Jim Shooter are listed as consulting editors.

Karen, if you guys ever work out some way to get paid, I'll accept comics as compensation...

Anonymous said...

Milgrom would surely have been consulting editor, seeing as he worked at Marvel.
Jim Shooter did a series of posts on the Marvel/DC crossovers for his blog a while back, which goes into the inter company politics a bit. Although he doesn't have much to say specifically about the Batman/Hulk (seems they were all ok with it)
www.jimshooter.com/2011/07/secret-origin-and-gooey-death-of_21.html

-sean

pfgavigan said...

Hiya,

Well HB, it's more than possible that the coloring techniques and pallets at DC at the time might have contributed to my sense of unease regarding the look of the Great Green Goober. Both companies had their house styles and these didn't necessarily mesh well. Even though I wasn't a regular reader of their book when the Teen Titans/X-Men crossover was released I remember a sense of 'close but not quite' regarding the Titans.

Were the two companies really that different or am I just imposing something that wasn't there?

We're going to need a discussion someday on the merits of these inter-companies crossovers. I remember how unhappy some were when it came to it's end, but I can honestly say that I tended to regard them more as a curiosity piece than an accomplishment.

Seeya,

pfgavigan

pfgavigan said...

Hiya,

Sorry, but I forgot to thank HB, sean and Edo for the info regarding who handled the editorial duties regarding the book.

Thanks again.

Seeya,

pfg

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the kind words people. This was a lot of fun! As for why it's a 3 person review, I wedged myself into the Edo & HB duo and they were too polite to tell me to hit the road. Thanks again, guys!

In terms of inter-company crossovers, they're really hit-or-miss. I skimmed the two Superman/ Spider-Man ones and they didn't do much for me. I really liked X-Men/Teen Titans but I was an X-Men fan and hadn't read too many Titans comics at that point. Pfavigan's "close but not quite" is probably right, but I can forgive a bit of inauthenticity when Walt Simonson's the artist. Of the post-'80s crossovers, my favorites are Batman/ Captain America, Incredible Hulk vs. Superman (you can't go wrong with Roger Stern and Steve Rude), and JLA/Avengers. None of them are essential reading, though.

- Mike Loughlin

Redartz said...

Great review; it took me awhile to get through it: started it this morning with breakfast, finished reading it over my lunch break, and only now (after supper) is there a chance to respond. And a big "well done" to Edo, HB (glad you got a chance to write about ol' greenskin, HB) and Mike; thanks for the fun, detailed review. Oh, and congrats to Karen and Doug for another BAB milestone!

I bought this when it came out, read it once and not long after parted with it. Don't remember it well, but your discussion above (and the illo of clown Batman) brought it back. Garcia-Lopez' art looks fine; and it might be worth picking up. I'd be inclined to hunt down a trade reprinting the inter-company crossovers; anyone know if this story is included in one?

Humanbelly said...

Mike, I kid you not, I honestly thought of myself as the guy that was oafishly horning in on you & Edo's road-trip! Spilling my Yoo-hoo as I clamber into the back seat. . . clearing the air with an excited belch. . . then squealing "This is GREAT! GRRRREAT!! Let's go! Hey. . . can we stop for a pizza egg-burger at the Tastee-Squish in Edwardsburg on the way out-? WOOOOOO-HOOOOO!!!"

Ahhhhhhh, good-times, good-times. . .


Count me among the folks that like the JLA/Avengers crossover the best. The art, of course, is beyond reproach. But I very much appreciated the thoughtful effort at capturing the inherent difference in tone that each universe had in regard to how their heroes were viewed, without making any judgment call on which was the "better" one. If anything, it deepened my admiration for the heroes of both universes. . . for kind of different reasons.

And thanks to all once again (and especially Doug and Karen) for letting us unleash our Bronze Age Fanboys upon the board w/out censor or restraint, eh?

HB

Anonymous said...

Happy 600th post everyone!

Holy Bat-Hulk story! Never knew there was a Batman/Hulk story. Seriously, I never thought these two characters would have their own crossover. Garcia-Lopez's artwork is really gorgeous here, although as some readers have commented Banner and the Hulk seem to say and do stuff completely out of character at times.


- Mike 'what next, Superman and Rocket Raccoon?' from Trinidad & Tobago.

Edo Bosnar said...

Pizza-egg burger? That sounds awesome!

Ward Hill Terry said...

Great job on the collaboration! I wish I could sit at your lunch table! As far as the complaints about the story, I think you overlooked something. (i am not going to defend the story. I bought this off the rack when it was published, and I've re-read it maybe twice.) I think this book was specifically written for the non-comics reader. This is the book for people who know the title characters from TV. Hulk-heads like HB may decry the brief appearance of Hulk's supporting cast, but as little shrift is given to Batman's. Wein was the major Bat-writer at this time and had created a nice cast of Wayne Foundation employees, underworld stoolies, and Gothamites, none of which are referenced in this book. And does Robin even get a cameo appearance?

I recall a Hembeck strip that had some Marvel or DC character complaining about this Team-up, and stating that the only reason for it was because they were on television. I learned so much from Hembeck!

Garett said...

Thanks for the review guys! I enjoyed the 1-2-3 observations. Hope to see more!

I loved this book when it came out, and must admit I'm a big Garcia Lopez fan. I didn't notice the Hulk problems you point out as I was never a fan of Hulk's solo comic (although I liked him as a guest star). I love the Joker in this story, especially the reality transformations at the end.

I'll have to read this one again, but I will say it's my favorite of all the DC-Marvel crossovers-- great fun! Another feature I enjoyed was the inside of the back cover, showing the sketches Garcia Lopez made for the cover, and the modifications suggested by Giordano and Milgrom.

Humanbelly said...

Oh,good call on that cover-draft page, Garrett!

I did indeed want to mention it-- but boy, I felt like we'd certainly had more than enough to say as it was! I did wonder if that page was on the reprint editions? It was a neat window into a respectful, friendly, professional editorial process. And the corrections were well-chosen. Something about the Hulk's feet-position looking too "dainty" (was it?) in the first sketch.

It's also a reminder that even the best artists in almost any field do benefit from having a trained, objective (yet appreciative) outside eye oversee their work to some degree.

HB

R. Lloyd said...

This Batman/ Hulk book was my introduction to the art of Jose Garcia Lopez. I got him to autograph it at the Mohegan Sun Comic Con last year. I told him how it was one of my favorite Batman stories and I still have it today. Jose was a great guy to talk to and although he didn't seem to remember much about the book it was fantastic to meet him in person.

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