Avengers: Age of Ultron -- FULLY SPOILED!!

NOTE: If you have not seen the film and want to stay clean on all the details, you'd best exit these premises now. Because what we do around here after a week's courtesy is let it all hang out!

Doug: Today Karen and I will lead off with our own thoughts on the latest installment in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and then we fully expect the comments section to fill up with everyone else's opinions as well. Should be fun! To kick it off, we'll let you hack our own personal email accounts, as we discussed the film this past Monday and beyond. I viewed a 4:00 pm showing on May 4, and we began hashing out the details a few hours afterward. Here goes, edited for conversational purposes --

Doug: Wow. I'll start with that.

Doug: I'm not sure how anyone is thinking Age of Ultron was not as good as the first one. First off, there was no set up in this one, no characters-meeting-each-other as in the first. Secondly, there's now an assumption on the part of the film makers that those coming to these things have seen the previous pictures. So no backstory on Baron Strucker or the Maximoff twins. It was assumed that everyone knows what the scepter is, and has a working knowledge of the Infinity Stones. All of that together allowed the creators to move characterization forward with no obligations.

Doug: I thought Hawkeye was obviously very improved from the first film, even though he's not "our" Hawkeye. It was nice that his wife (totally did not see that one coming) even called him that. We got more on the Black Widow - the scene where she tells Banner about the final initiation to become a Russian assassin was chilling. Banner himself was well-played.

Karen: I actually liked Hawkeye this time around, although I'm not all that fond of Jeremy Renner. Hawkeye is not much like the comic version, but at least he had personality. He was obviously the 'window' character or normal guy. I wondered if he might get killed off after we saw his family.

Doug: I know -- I was waiting for some carnage if and when Ultron located our hiding heroes. And Captain America could not be better. The stunts are incredible, and Chris Evans nails his fighting will. Perfect. Just perfect. Likewise, Robert Downey continues to excel as Iron Man. Really, I have no complaints about the casting. I thought it was a great touch that Wanda and Pietro spoke with Eastern European accents. But Cap won the day in this film as the Hulk had in the first one.

Karen: I agree with you about Cap -it's hard to believe I ever had doubts that Chris Evans could play this role. He embodies it so well. He carries the authority, the seriousness, the play-calling. Yet he also has humor. He and Downey work well together. I like that Cap's vision (as I read it) was that essentially, his fears came true, and he's still here -lonely maybe, but here. And by seeing Stark's vision -his fear of another invasion, his feeling that he should be doing something to protect the world, and his friends, we have reason to understand his behavior. He's carrying an awful lot of weight on his shoulders. As was pointed out in the film, he doesn't have to carry it alone. I'm not sure he really gets it though. I was surprised how the Big Three were all buddy-buddy again at the end. Stark was really responsible for everything, via Ultron. I wonder if this will come up again, perhaps in Civil War?

Doug: If I have a criticism, it's that the reaction to Stark and his machinations was odd. At first we get Banner trying to talk him out of it, then we get Thor grabbing him by the throat, then a little general disgust from the team. But you're right - by the end it seems like "Oh well, all's well that ends well!" And... can't remember which character, but someone had a great line about the dichotomy in Stark's personality.

Karen: Was it Wanda's comment about Ultron not knowing the difference between saving the world and destroying it, and where did that come from (Stark)?

Doug: That's it! I thought that whole point was a nice way to tie a bow on what began as Stark's mission in the first Iron Man picture and that the fall-out was still being felt here in what is probably a few years later.

Karen: I would have liked to have seen Hulk interact with his team-mates more (other than Widow). Also, he never spoke at all. Dang!

Doug: Yes, I've grown a little impatient with the movie Hulk being all-berserker, all-the-time. I miss the Bronze Age Hulk. What did you think of the big Hulk-Hulkbuster battle, when the under-construction building came tumbling down? Two things immediately crossed my mind: a) 9-11 is still a raw nerve, and that scene was way too close, as was some of the imagery in Man of Steel, and b) speaking of Man of Steel, I thought it was a bit of a dig at that film when Iron Man checked his bio-sensors to determine that there were no humans in that structure before he carried out his plot. Touche`, DC!

Karen: I thought that through-out the film, it was stressed that the Avengers were trying to protect and save people, and while I think this is exactly what super-heroes should be doing, I wondered if some of this was a dig at Man of Steel. You're not the first person to mention 9-11 but honestly, I didn't think about that while watching it -I just thought that it seemed highly unlikely that a building coming down, even an unoccupied one, wouldn't cause deaths, in a busy city block. But, after seeing it twice, it's clear that Iron Man was trying to get Hulk out of the city -he just wouldn't cooperate. I have to say, this sequence did have a couple of great laughs. The rapid-fire punching and "go to sleep go to sleep go to sleep" was hilarious, as was the part where Iron Man whacks Hulk with the elevator and Hulk then spits out a tooth and gives Iron Man an angry look, which causes Stark to meekly say, "I'm sorry."

Doug: Yes, those were great moments. For the Hulk, that was about it, though, as he was not the major player at the end of the film that I'd wondered if he'd be. But there's just no way Ultron would have stood that abuse for very long, so the Hulk was conveniently away from the main fracas.

Doug: The Vision -- wow. Give me more. Please.

Karen: Is it possible that Marvel has given Adam Warlock's 'role' to the Vision? The Vision basically comes out of a "cocoon," has an infinity gem on his forehead, and when asked, proclaims that he is on the side of life, very much as Warlock was a champion of life.  So with the Vision around, what point would there be in introducing Warlock now -or at least, the version of Warlock that we all know? Why have two characters that seem to serve the same narrative purpose?

Karen: That said, I loved the Vision, was immensely pleased with what they did with him, and thought Paul Bettany did a fantastic job. The conversation between he and Ultron at the very end -"I think you missed that" - was just perfect.

Doug: Two things I would suggest in favor of Warlock: if the Vision is going to be a stand-in, then why have we seen the so-obvious-it's Warlock's-cocoon in two scenes with the Collector? Also, rumors were running rampant that they were going to make Warlock be Peter Quill's long lost father. Being stuck in a cocoon would certainly qualify one for being "long lost". Just my thoughts.

Karen: I know, they might still have Warlock. But the cocoon in GotG was never confirmed as Warlock's, and the director of GotG II (James Gunn, same guy who directed the first one) has said Warlock will not be in it , although that could be misdirection. However, it seems unlikely that they would have two guys who are artificially constructed men running around with infinity gems on their heads. Unless you make Warlock just an alien, and remove the soul gem from his head. But if they start tampering with his origin too much, then is he really Warlock? Another reason I think this Vision is "more" than just our old android: he lifted Thor's hammer! Come on! He must be meant for great things -like facing Thanos perhaps?

Doug: I thought the contest to lift Mjolnir was a great way to tie the film together. Did you notice Thor's face when Cap got it to ever-so-slightly budge? And I really liked the banter between Thor and the Vision on the weight distribution of the hammer. Classic stuff.

Karen: The hammer lifting challenge was a nice teambuilding moment. Of all of them, Cap is the only one who should be able to lift it (and did in the comics). I liked that shot of Thor and Vision standing on the balcony speaking - the two of them are so different from the rest of the team. With the gem, this Vision is probably far more powerful than the comic version, putting him on Thor's level or even greater, I think.

Doug: Additionally, we are missing "one for the thumb", so to speak. Am I missing an Infinity Gem, because I think I am:

Tesseract

Gem from the scepter, now possessed by the Vision

Aether

The stone from GotG

Doug: Doesn't that leave one more? All of that is not to say that you have a bad argument, and our readers may like that theory.

Karen: Your list is correct as I recall. I'm not sure how many gems they plan to have in the films. In the comics there were six. I believe the Collector names them all in GotG but I'd have to go back and watch that to be sure. But so far I think we have only seen four, and Thor sees four in his vision. Actually, it seems sort of odd that Thanos gave Loki that scepter that had a gem in it. Didn't he know the gem was there? Why give it away? I guess he expected Loki to win and he would get the scepter (and stone) back.

Doug: Ultron was certainly different than I'd anticipated, but it worked for me after just a little while. I liked his size and ruthlessness. His ability to fly was an added wrinkle of sinister proportions. I thought his plan was a good one. Hey, did you think it might end in the scene from Avengers #159 when Thor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, and the Vision catch the falling city that Graviton had lifted? I wasn't disappointed in this outcome, but I was wondering.

Karen: I had some difficulty with Spader's portrayal -a little too goofy for me at times. Overall it was quite good but there were times I was thinking of Spader and not Ultron. I do wish they had used HB's suggestion of having Stark's personality integrated into Ultron. I did like when he freaked out about Klaw saying "You're one of Stark's" - a little close to the bone.

Doug: It took me awhile to get used to the fact that Ultron has a malleable mouth. That he could make facial expressions seemed weird.

Karen: Yes, that kind of threw me too -it looked cartoonish at times. I did wonder if the way he looked when he first met the twins was a call-out to his first appearance as "The Crimson Cowl" -he was draped with that reddish scarf or whatever it was. That scene really seemed odd -there was no set up for it, the twins just show up in the church. I felt that there had been some heavy editing there for sure, and in a few other spots. We know that about an hour was chopped out, and I guess Thor's visions were also cut back heavily -I heard an interview with Joss Whedon who said that originally Thor contacted the Norns but they had to delete almost all of that.

Doug: Apparently Loki was to have been in that scene, but Heimdall ended up standing in -- they couldn't get Tom Hiddleston when they needed him for filming but Idris Elba was available (or some such thing). I, too, noticed the Crimson Cowl reference, which was also somewhat appropriate as it occurred just after Ultron usurped the JARVIS software -- remember, Jarvis was a dupe for Ultron in the mad robot's first appearance!

Doug: The church scene overall seemed more appropriate for a first look at Dr. Doom than it did for Ultron.

Karen: Biggest geeky moment for me was seeing Thor, Vision, and Iron Man all blast Ultron together. That was just so comic booky! 

Doug: Awesome to see the Helicarrier back. Fury had a larger role -- he made a nice comeback as well.

Karen: Where the heck was Fury hiding a helicarrier? It was fun seeing War Machine in action there but I would've liked to see Falcon too.

Doug: I also thought the Falcon would be in that scene. And I guess I was surprised that we didn't get even a brief look or mention of the Black Panther. What did you think of the scene with Klaw? I'll be honest -- the sound in the theater I attended isn't always all that great and I had a difficult time picking up all of the dialogue in that part of the film.

Karen: What did you think of Quicksilver dying? I guess they have more than enough characters. But it didn't have much emotional impact for me.

Doug: I was surprised -- kept waiting for him to get up. Before that, I assumed he'd zip by and display a handful of bullets to Hawkeye. I've read that every draft of the script had him dying at the end... however, they did shoot an alternate ending where he survives in order to "throw people off" so that there'd be no leaks about that aspect of the film. I didn't feel like we got to know him enough that I'd care. Did you catch the split second when Wanda and the Vision gazed into one another's eyes?

Karen: When the Vision swoops down and saves Wanda? That was thrilling! Although none of the actors will discuss it, it seems as though they are headed towards some sort of relationship for those two, which should be interesting. I wonder what people will make of it.

Doug: Personally, I agree with Maria Hill -- "she's weird". So I'm thinking it could actually be less of a problem in the films than it ever was in the comics! Seriously, I just couldn't warm to either Wanda or Pietro. Their transformation from bad to good was way too quick. But then, give that an hour's worth of film was allegedly cut could have something to do with that. Wonder if there will be a director's cut?

Doug: So that being said, I did think there were some cool "Kooky Quartet" moments, although I don't believe the four of them were ever actually together in one scene. Hawkeye's pep talk to Wanda was inspiring, but again -- it only works coming from the MCU Clint. "Our" guy would have been looking down her blouse!

  
Karen:Yes, it would've been nice to see the Kooky Quartet all together for one scene. That felt like a missed opportunity to me. 
 
Doug: That Marvel has managed to weave together this universe is amazing. So many characters from so many films, and even with a spoken nod or a few minutes of screen time, it really begins to feel like the comic books.

Karen: While I enjoy that aspect of it -the complex universe -I do start to have concerns that the films are becoming over-stuffed, and perhaps having to spend too much time setting up future films. Being a comics fan I have no real trouble following who's who and such but I wonder if it becomes overly complicated for a general audience? I know I always felt completely lost at Harry Potter films, for example.

Doug: I am so excited to see this again, and am looking forward to Civil War (I sort of like the depowered "New Avengers"). Although in answer to your concern, today (Thursday, 7 May 2015) it was announced that Civil War will included everyone in the MCU (including the cast from Winter Soldier) except Thor and the Hulk. Spider-Man is supposed to appear, but I don't believe in a major role. That's a whole lot of heroes and baddies!

Karen: Basically, Captain America: Civil War will be another Avengers film! What did you think of the new Avengers line-up at the end? Although I will miss Hulk and Iron Man (and Thor, but I consider him "off on assignment"), I kind of like the changes. It's just like the way the line ups would change every so often in the comic. This line-up still has some power too -Vision is up there, and I would say Wanda is too, based on what she did versus Ultron. Her powers actually reminded me more of the early Phoenix (pre-Dark Phoenix). We also have War Machine. It was great to see Falcon there too. By the time the next Avengers film rolls around, we might also have Spider-Man, the Panther, and Capt. Marvel!

Doug: Well, before the Infinity Gauntlet storyline is over I think we'll see something akin to the Korvac Saga where it's all comers versus the mad Titan. As I said several months ago, I cannot wait for a scene with Rocket Raccoon, Groot, and the Hulk! But in answer to your question, I did like the new line-up. And doggone it if Cap didn't almost say "Avengers Assemble!" But not quite... But I still smiled.