Thursday, November 20, 2014

The Association

Doug: For those of you who thought we'd be discussing the merits of "Never My Love" or "Windy", I'm sorry to disappoint. However...

Doug: Roy Thomas = Conan and World War II-era heroes, right? That's today's drill, kids. Pick a writer or artist and tell us what immediately pops into your mind. So if someone suggests Jim Aparo, do you first think of Batman in general, or Brave and the Bold in particular?

Doug: Along the way today I'm sure we can get a little healthy debate going on certain creators. For example, for most of us I am going to guess that Stainless Steve Englehart will be revered for his Avengers run. Yet I know there are those among you who are particularly fond of his runs on Dr. Strange and on Detective Comics (hmm... anyone want to suggest Marshall Rogers for something other than that run?). So you see where this can go, huh?

Doug: I'm looking forward to the many great creators who will be suggested today. And even for those who we didn't care for (I'm looking at you, Mr. Robbins), they may be unquestionably linked to a book or character (The Invaders). Have fun!






32 comments:

martinex1 said...

For our pal Sal Buscema I always think of his early Avengers work circa issue 72 because those were the first comics my cousin shared with me but I am sure more people first think Defenders or Hulk or Spectacular Spider Man or even ROM.
On John Byrne I will always go to his X-Men run before FF, Alpha Flight, Superman, etc.
And Robbins and Invaders are inseparable. For me the Invaders have to look like that no matter how weird the poses and anatomy.

Anonymous said...

Marshall Rogers?...Those beautiful covers (and interior art!) for Miracle Man. Whenever I see them displayed I am attracted to buy them even now...though I own at least two of each comic.
Oh, and I agree with Sal Buscema although I forgot to comment on the other day's Defenders discussion and say that I thought his work on that title with Jansen inking was inspired and was just that little bit more mature and sophisticated for the time than most.

Colin Jones said...

Gene Colan and Dracula - he drew every single issue of Tomb of Dracula as far as I know. Dracula springs to mind because I've just finished reading 'Deadpool: Dracula's Gauntlet' which was terrific (not all modern comics are bad) but it was disappointing that Dracula was nothing like (not even remotely like) Gene Colan's version :(

Colin Jones said...

By the way, Doug - just out of curiosity, whatever happened to those 'giant villain' covers from a few weeks ago ? Our suggestions never appeared as a post. (I appreciate that you're a busy man but I thought I'd mention it in case it just slipped your mind).

Redartz said...

Ross Andru and Spider-Man. And of course I'm focusing on the Bronze age, so no mention of Ditko or Romita.

Mike Ploog and Man-Thing; there were other fine illustrators but Mike's work seemed beautifully appropriate for this title.

George Perez and Avengers. A tough call, but I first saw George's work on this book, and loved each issue he drew...

Doug said...

Hi, Colin --

No, I didn't forget. In fact, just a day or so ago I was thinking that I needed to get to that post. It's on the to-do list, along with a bunch of other stuff. Maybe over the coming holiday next week I can pull it together.

Thanks,

Doug

Doug said...

Colin -- ditto on Colan and Dracula, although Daredevil would be a very, very close second.

Redartz -- fully agree with the link between Andru and Spidey. Perez is a bit tougher, but I do always think of him as an Avengers artist first.

Martinex1 -- I also agree with you about John Byrne.

As for me --

Don Heck -- the Cap's Kooky Quartet era of the Avengers.

Jack Kirby -- the FF.

Curt Swan -- of course Superman.

Mike Grell -- Superboy and the Legion of Super-heroes over Green Arrow, but close.

Doug

Edo Bosnar said...

There are some comics creators that have done so much that I really don't associate them with any single title or character: Byrne, Perez, Adams, John & Sal Buscema, Simonson, Mantlo, Gerber, Stern, even Roy Thomas, and many others.

However, I definitely associate Aparo with Batman, Andru with Spider-man and Swan with Superman.

Here's a few others that come to mind:
John Romita (Sr.) - Spider-man
P. Craig Russell - Killraven
Don McGregor - Black Panther
Ramona Fradon - Super Friends
Michael Golden - Micronauts
Both Paul Levitz and Keith Giffen - Legion of Super-heroes

Humanbelly said...

Uh, hello? Herb Trimpe & the Incredible Hulk?

Or. . . were you all just generously saving that one for me? (Very thoughtful. . . many thanks across the board.)

Walt Simonson and Thor is another pretty easy lob to the batter. It's like all of his prior work led to that run, and I surely don't think he's reached those heights since then.

One of the reasons I stumped so relentlessly for Sal B back in our Best Bronze Age Artist Bracketology-thingy is 'cause he was able to forge that type of strong association with runs across such a large number of books, starting w/ martinex's favorite- that early run in the Avengers. His HULK run, of course, really does rival Herb's (and Sal reportedly forged a very similar bond to the character as well). I've heard many folks here who favor his run on CAPTAIN AMERICA. The first three years of the DEFENDERS' (as we've recently discussed) success owe so much to Sal's straightforward visuals even as the stories got flakier. ROM's entire run was Sal, wasn't it? And then his pencils on Spectacular Spiderman are, to me, what kept that book readable during a period of relentlessly dark stories and hopelessly bad coloring experiments.
(BTW, Doug-- NICE choice of a couple of Sal panels, there!)

Daggone it-- I'm a-gonna petition fer a Bracketology recount, I yam!

HB

Doug said...

As much as I love the work of John Buscema (and you're really new around here if you don't know that), I have to say that I associate him most with Conan. That's a little tough for me to say, as to me he is the consummate Avengers artist.

Doug

Doug said...

HB -- an image search on Google is a wonderful thing! And you mean Trimpe's Hulk wins out over Godzilla??

What to do with Neal Adams? I think for me it's the X-Men over Batman. But then there was that Deadman thing... No, definitely the X-Men.

Doug

Karen said...

If we're just going on what pops into our heads first, then for me Sal Buscema = Captain America. I'll always think of him on that terrific run with Englehart.

For me, Roy Thomas =Avengers, because the first stuff of his I read was Avengers, specifically the Kree-Skrull War, and you know that made an impact! His X-Men and Conan work all came later for me and nothing made as big an impression.

Englehart's tougher; I could easily say Cap, but I'll probably have to go with Avengers. But those two are very close.

Gerry Conway =Spider-Man...despite having written Fantastic Four and Thor and everything else at some point!

Bob Layton =Iron Man, right?

Although Dave Cockrum should = Legion, for me it's X-Men. Like Doug, Mike Grell =Legion to me.

I can't do a Stan Lee or Jack Kirby association, there are just too many titles and characters connected to those two men.

Although I am not a big Superman fan, I always think of Curt Swan when i see Supes.

And Jim Aparo equals Batman and Batman equals Jim Aparo...

Humanbelly said...

Hoo-boy, no Doug, 'fraid I couldn't grow any love for the Godzilla run-! I remember that it was a shining example of how Herb really always needed to be paired with a solid inker to mitigate his stylistic weaknesses. Annnnnd Godzilla didn't provide that for him. (It was very nice, however, in that it gave ol' T-bolt Ross a much more appropriate threat to aim his cigar-drenched vitriol at-)

I may be one of the few folks around here to go this route, but Kirby & Kamandi (and OMAC and Forever People and New Gods) are much more tightly linked for me than Kirby/FF or Kirby/Thor. Those works of the comic-fantastique literally don't exist w/out him. . . and they're what I always think of first when his name comes to mind.

HB

WardHill Terry said...

Dick Dillin = Justice League of America

Joe Staton = Justice Society of America

Irv Novick = The Flash

I'd have added Berni Wrightson and Swamp Thing, but I like the idea of these associations not including original creators. So, Alan Moore = Swamp Thing. Also Elliot S! Maggin = Superman.

Garett said...

Mike Grell= Jon Sable, and maybe the Warlord.
Howard Chaykin= American Flagg, even though I like a lot of the other work he's done.
Marshall Rogers, I think Mister Miracle. Especially the ad that trumpeted his return. There are too many good Batman artists for me to link him just to that character.
Bernie Wrightson= Swamp Thing. His Frankenstein art is spectacular, but there's something just right about Wrightson with Swamp Thing.

Sienkiewicz= Moon Knight. Some like his New Mutants, but I think of creator Bob McLeod first for them.
Bob Layton, I think his Hercules was the best Herc ever in comics. But I suppose I do think of the shiny way he drew Iron Man as the association.
Perez= Teen Titans. No one drew them like him (except maybe a nice guest penciling by Garcia Lopez), whereas the Avengers have had many good artists.
Mike Zeck= Master of Kung Fu. He drew the Punisher and Cap well, but his Shang Chi with Gene Day's inks was super. I want that t-shirt with his issue #100 cover art.

Teresa said...

Carmine Infantino = Flash
Gil Kane = Green Lantern
Marshall Rogers = Batman
Keith Giffen = Legion
George Perez = Teen Titans
José Luis García-López = DC
Jack Kirby = Marvel
Kurt Schaffenberger = Superman Family
John Byrne = FF
Frank Robbins = Invaders
Bob Layton - Iron Man

Doug said...

I associate Giffen with Ambush Bug. He was not drawing the Legion when I left, and I did not read the version of the team he was drawing when I came back to collecting. I personally do not care for his work, so he's not linked to that book/team.

I associate Denny O'Neill with GL/GA more than I do with Batman.

Doug

Teresa said...

I didn't like Keith Giffen's later "Jose Munoz" style in the LSH. IMHO it was borderline repulsive at times.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, Moench/Gulacy on Master of Kung Fu, Grell on Warlord (I liked his GA and Jon Sable stuff too, but Warlord is what immediately jumps to mind); for writers...Mike Fleisher wrote the definitive version of Jonah Hex (for me anyway); same with Larry Hama on G.I. Joe...if Hama wrote it, I consider it G.I. Joe canon, if not, I can't even read it.

Mike W.

Humanbelly said...

Mark Gruenwald = Squadron Supreme

Bendis = uh-oh, Civil War

HB

Doug said...

Seriously, HB? We could have gone a month of Sundays without anyone mentioning the name of he who shall not be mentioned...

I'd associate him with New Avengers anyway, the death knell of my comics buying.

Doug

Robert L. said...

On Frank Robbins and his art in "The Invaders":

It's not that the man couldn't draw well...it's just that his style wasn't right for this particular book. I knew he was going for that Milton Caniff look from Steve Canyon, the comic strip.

However in a Marvel comic those styles don't mesh. If I were choosing an artist for Roy Thomas's Invaders series, I'd have to say our pal Sal Buscema would have been an ideal choice. His clean, precise lines would have been perfect to depict the 1940's World War II era.

Instead we got stuck with Robbins art which was just downright confusing to me. All the figures moved like puppets with their strings cut. Arms and legs would swing in poses that were completely unnatural. I saw his art from different eras and it wasn't distorted as it was in The Invaders.

It's only speculation on my part, but perhaps Robbins had health issues that had affected his art and someone at Marvel wanted to keep him employed because there were so many comics that never made money for Marvel at the time.
____________________________
On the subject of Sal Buscema:

He was always one of my favorite artists because his work was clean and not over rendered. Some of the great art at the time suffered from over-rendering, especially the black and white dollar books. It was a distraction to the overall story.

david_b said...

As for Invaders and Robbins, I too associate 'em both closely. I picked up that Giant Size FF Annual 11 that had the Invaders drawn by Big John and Grainger-inked (previously previewed here at BAB).

To me the obvious-Invaders artist would have been Kirby (who did the cover..), but it was given to Robbins instead. Anywho, I thought the art there was very refreshing and polished.

Not to get into too much detail, but I'd associate our Sal with CA&F the best. I liked his Avengers work, but there's times you simply associate favorite title artists with when you started collecting.., and for me it's..:

Bob Brown - Avengers, DD
Colan - DD, Doc Strange
Ditko - Doc Strange
Perez - Titans
Byrne - FF
J Buscema/Sinnott - FF
Trimpe - Hulk
Romita Sr - Spidey

Humanbelly said...

Sorrysorrysorrysorrysorry(about the BMB jab-!)

And heck, it wasn't even as sincere as it should have been. 'Cause to be fully honest, Bendis does have a legitimate "Association" claim w/ he & Bagley's ULTIMATE SPIDERMAN run. The first several years of that book were warm and fun and deeply engaging, and really did have a sustained alternate-U magic that went far, far beyond my expectations.

But-- my praise does end there. Have no fear!

HB

Anonymous said...

To me, Byrne is Marvel. Despite what he did else where, even his own creator generated titles, John Byrne is Marvel.

Simonson is Thor.

Giffen is Justice League.


Andru is Spider-Man (I've heard he can do whatever a spider can).

The Prowler (stops in the name of love at least twice a week).

Anonymous said...

Carmine Infantino=Flash
Gil Kane=Green Lantern
Neal Adams=Batman
Robbins=Man-Bat or the Shadow
Grell=Jon Sable
Colan=Daredevil
Swan=Superman
Sekowski=Justice League
Don Heck=Kooky Quartet Avengers
Englehart & Rogers=Detective Comics
Ditko=Spider-Man
Aparo=Brave & Bold
Al Williamson=Star Wars
Don Newton=Shazam
Kirby=Fantastic Four
Kubert=Sgt. Rock
Russ Manning=Tarzan
Dan Speigle=Korak
John Buscema=Conan
Trimpe=Hulk

William said...

Here are few of mine.

Chris Claremont = X-Men (John Byrne too, but not as much)

John Byrne = Fantastic Four

Frank Miller = Daredevil

George Perez = New Teen Titans

John Romita Jr. = Spider-Man

Anonymous said...

Woo boy we got a boatload of comments today!

Well, here's my list of creators who are inextricably linked to their creations in my feeble brain -

Stan Lee/Jack Kirby/Joe Sinnott - FF

Joe Simon/Jack Kirby - Captain America

Steve Ditko, John Romita Sr. - Spider-Man

Gene Colan - DD & Dracula

John Buscema, Ernie Chan - Conan

Paul Gulacy - Shang Chi

Chris Claremont/John Byrne - X-men

Sal Buscema - Defenders

Steve Engelhart - Avengers

Herb Trimpe (yes HB!) - Hulk

Bill Everett - Namor the Sub-Mariner

Gil Kane - Spider-Man

I realize that these fine folks did a ton of work on other titles but these are the characters that I think of when their names are mentioned. Of course, there are many I've left out, but this would be a really long blog if I tried to include everyone!

- Mike 'I created ... a peanut butter & jelly sandwich today' from Trinidad & Tobago.

William said...

I personally can't link Sal Buscema to one single character or book because he's worked on so many that I've read over the years.

So for me...

Sal Buscema = Captain America, Incredible Hulk, The Defenders, and Spectacular Spider-Man.

And when I think about it, the same can be said for John Byrne and George Perez.

Perez = Avengers, New Teen Titans, and Wonder Woman.

Byrne = X-Men, Fantastic Four, Avengers, Superman, Marvel Team-Up, and Iron Fist,

Anonymous said...

Steranko-----Nick Fury

Kaluta----The Shadow

Colan------Daredevil


Scott Lovrine

Disneymarvel said...

Rich Buckler = FF

George Perez = Avengers

John Byrne = X-Men, Iron Fist & FF

Mike Zeck = Master of Kung Fu

Anonymous said...

Steranko - Fury. Apart from those few magic Caps, what else did he give us?

Ditko – Doc Strange. I know Colan was a far superior artist, but Ditko was a superior designer / originator. Everyone else saw alien dimensions as ‘our world, plus/minus’. Ditko said ‘well, in this universe, electromagnetism is in the form of blue daffodils’. Even his gravity is different.

Cockrum Xmen – where Byrne has links to FF, Alpha Flight & Supes, Cockrum originated the new team. And designed them.

Englehart Avengers. No one has ever written the Avengers so well, before or since. Absolutely epic.

Starlin – Warlock. His Captain Marvel was great, but his heart was with Adam.

Humanbelly – agree about Trimpe – he’s like vodka – completely depends what you mix him with. Severin, yummy. Abel, Oh dear. But he’s hard to separate from the Jade Giant no matter who is inking.

Mike – I totally agree about Gil Kane and Spider Man. When you think of Spidey, you don’t think of Kane, but this is the other way round. Kane’s angular, dynamic art was perfectly suited to the web slinger, and he was never really allowed to do a long run on anything else.

Karen – I agree, that great run on Iron Man owed far more to Layton than JRJR.

Gulacy – I associate Shang Chi with a lot of good art, but I only associate Gulacy with Shang Chi.

I really associate the Surfer with John Buscema. At the start, Spidey & Doc Strange were non-Kirby because they were Ditko, and then for about 5 years Kirby utterly dominated the house style, until the Surfer. Also, Big John drew every issue but one, so it was really his.

Richard

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