Doug: By now most of our avid readers and commenters know the drill -- today is a day when the first respondent is el jefe (the boss)! Yep, you're in charge of whatever it is we're going to discuss. So make it a good one. And the rules remain the same -- no thread hijacking. Whoever set their alarm clock early should be rewarded, so play nice!
Doug: Even though we really haven't shown it much (there's just too much to do and not enough time to do it!) around here, Karen and I are big Legion fans. We've done a few comic reviews, and there's certainly been a comment here and there in the midst of our Side-by-Side series when the Legion becomes a topic within a certain year. The multi-part "Great Darkness Saga" was a fun series to review, and sooner or later we're going to tackle some more Dave Cockrum and Mike Grell 1970's goodness. But today we'd like to ask you to rank some Legionnaires in regard to their usefulness. You can choose from the entire roster (reboots included) if you want, and tell us who in your mind are your MVP's, and then toss a little dirt on those you just scratch your head and mutter, "Say what?" Who are your favorite characters (usefulness aside), and who can you simply not stand?
DC, still riding the high of the Batman television show, will be forced to continue to evolve as Marvel kept growing. And in the world outside our windows, turmoil was the daily word. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in Memphis in April, and sure-to-be Democratic presidential nominee Bobby Kennedy was gunned down in Los Angeles in June, the same month James Earl Ray was arrested for King's murder. Students rioted around the globe, and the Soviet army put down the "Prague Spring". The men aboard Apollo 8 became the first to orbit the moon. Hot Wheels were introduced in September, 60 Minutes premiered on CBS the same month, and in December the Beatles released the White Album. At the movies, the Beatles released Yellow Submarine; Planet of the Apes and Night of the Living Dead gave us pause, and 2001: A Space Odyssey was Stanley Kubrick's masterpiece. 
Doug: In the first quarter, Marvel brought back a character from its Atlas period when Roy Thomas re-made the Black Knight in the pages of Avengers #48. Later in the year, in Marvel Super-Heroes #17 (November), Dane Whitman met his predecessor Sir Percy of Scandia. By the way, neither was related to the dude who suited up with Baron Zemo's Masters of Evil in the early Avengers issues. Also in January, Whiplash first surfaced to menace the Golden Avenger, in the pages of Tales of Suspense #97, and Gwen Stacy's father was introduced in Amazing Spider-Man #56. George Stacy was a retired NYPD captain and close friend of Joe Robertson. Stacy was one of the few members of Spidey's supporting cast who deduced that Spider-Man was Peter Parker. The Wrecker debuted in Mighty Thor #148, and he was eventually empowered by Asgardian magic. In the 100th issue of Tales to Astonish, the Hulk and Sub-Mariner battled each other, and in X-Men #42, Professor X was believed to have perished; it was later revealed that the Professor was in reality the Changeling. 
Believe it or not, as Abin Sur was about to die, his computers had located two men who would be worthy to wear the ring of the Green Lantern Corps: Hal Jordan and Gardner. Lucky for the universe that Jordan just happened to be closer to the crash site! 
Of course, it was another thing that ticked Kirby off and hastened his departure from Marvel.
The issue was created by Arnold Drake and artists Don Heck and Werner Roth. The Badoon first appeared in Silver Surfer #2, and Dr. Faustus menaced Captain America for the first time in Captain America #107. In Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5, Peter learned what had happened to his parents, and in Fantastic Four Annual #6, we were introduced to Annihilus and witnessed the birth of Franklin Richards. The next month, in December, Crystal replaced Sue Richards on active duty in FF #81. Hank Pym did another costume (and personality) change in Avengers #59 when he became Yellowjacket. And to close the year, the devil himself, Mephisto, was introduced in Silver Surfer #3 as Stan further portrayed Norrin Radd as a messianic figure. 
Doug: We are re-running a post that originally appeared in the dawning of this blog, back in November of 2009. At the time it got no comments -- probably due to the fact that we had not-too-many readers back then. Several times in the past few weeks, our readers have commented on various purchases they've made lately that hearken back to the Bronze Age. I commented that Karen and I, too, are always looking for that next nugget that we'll parlay into a post or comics review. So, it sounds like we're all still, to some degree, buying old comics. And that brings us to today's (or way-back-when's) topic, which I've turned into an Open Forum question -- How do you interpret the word "collecting" in regard to your buying habits these days?
I would say the cornerstone of my collection these days are the four Marvel DVD-ROMs that I own -- complete collections (through about 2006) of Amazing Spider-Man, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and Iron Man. These discs have largely turned me away from collecting comic books themselves.
Capitalizing on the success of The Invaders, scribe Roy Thomas brought together his two favorite Marvel teams and weaved a tale befitting the Annual format. This is a long but never drawn-out story -- a real gem from my 10th summer!
Once the dust settles, both Sue and Reed chastise Ben for his outburst, and harp on the financial situation of the team. Ben's response is to get on Doc Doom's time machine and seek wealth in the past, just before the California Gold Rush of 1849! Ben likens that mission to their first time travel expedition when they nearly had Blackbeard's pirate treasure. I'd comment that Roy Thomas, through all of his footnotes, has really woven a true jumping-on story. A new reader would feel very comfortable with this magazine in hand, as Thomas links this story to recent and "ancient" FF history, as well as describing each team member's powers and showing us his/her personality. I was just really struck by how accessible the first several pages of this story are.
Doug: On the way to the chamber where the time machine is stored, Ben and the others are shocked to find Nazi troops in the room! Of course a brouhaha breaks out and the overmatched soldiers are quickly subdued. Reed begins to speculate how they came forward through the time stream. Johnny wonders why there's such a hurry to return them and Reed explains how delicate the time stream is, and that the men must be returned to exactly the precise instant they left. Trouble is, he doesn't have that time stamp. Suddenly, Reed's also aware that a cylinder of Wakandan vibranium is missing from a table beside the time platform. Speculating that in the melee with Luke Cage just days earlier (or in reality, in the events chronicled in FF #'s 169-170 [April-May 1976]), the cylinder may have been dislodged and fallen onto the platform, thus activating it. But what's even more worrisome is that the vibranium must have materialized in Nazi hands.
As long as I've mentioned the creative team of Thomas and Big John Buscema, we may as well comment on the effectiveness of inker Sam Grainger. I'm surprised as we've gone through all of our comics reviews at how often Grainger's work pops up. As I've said in the past, I rather enjoyed him working over Sal Buscema on the Avengers in the late 1960's; lately it seems we've remarked that he's serviceable in the 1970's, but a favorite of neither of us? I'd go so far as to say he's pretty inconsistent in this story -- overall the art is nice, but the character faces seem to oscillate between fully-Buscema to Buscema-under-the-influence. What sayest thou?
Karen: I also thought it was pretty funny to see Namor already hitting on Sue, and Reed having him with them on their team -dumb! But the scenes of Namor cutting loose in the castle were some of the most exciting in the book. I think Big John must have enjoyed drawing him.
But it's a legitimate idea, in the vast grey area that is time travel. But yes, it is hard to reconcile the idea that Reed and Ben, in 1942, were old enough to enlist. Even if they snuck in and lied about their ages -say they were 16 - they'd still be 50! Already, just 14 years into the Marvel Age, we begin to see the 'real time' aspect of it unravel. Of course, now the only war they might have been involved in was the first Gulf War -even that, being 20 years ago, is probably too far back for them!
Doug: Today's question is sort of multiple choice, and you can even feel free to add in your own topics of conversation. A few weeks ago I was thinking of several of Marvel's Bronze Age creations -- superstars of the '70's, if you will. And I was contemplating all of the Bronze Age goodness that these folks typify and it got me to thinking of you, the faithful reader. So I'm throwing this out to the masses: Which Bronze Age creation from the House of Ideas epitomized the creativity, envelope-pushing, and general style of Marvel between the years 1970-1985?
It would be hard to disput
e that the Hulk was the worst Avenger ever. As a team-mate, he was surly, uncooperative, and had questionable hygiene. Worse yet, he would later prove to be an actual enemy to the team, and cause them no end of headaches. On top of this, he was only a member for the first 2 issues of the title (and maybe again in issue 100), making him also the shortest-tenured Avenger. Yet the Hulk was a founding member, and one way or another, he has had his impact on the team, despite the brevity of his career with them.
If one examines the Hulk's interactions with the Avengers, with very few exceptions, they all revolve around him fighting the team, even when he was an actual member! In the first issue, the heroes are gathered by Loki tricking them into battling the Jade Giant. In the second issue, they are again tricked into fighting Hulk, this time by the Space Phantom, who is imitating him. By the time the deception is revealed, the Avengers have made it clear that they don't trust the Hulk. He astutely recognizes that not only is he disliked, but further association with the team may prove his undoing: “You all hate me…fear me because I’m the strongest! If I stay with you, you’ll find some way to destroy me!” Accordingly Greenskin quits the team and takes off, only to fall into cahoots with the Sub-Mariner. The twosome battle the Avengers in issue 3, and from that time on, the Hulk would become a recurring foe.
While the battles between the Hulk and the Avengers have been numerous, one early encounter stands out for producing something positive: the first meeting of the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. In Fantastic Four #25, the Hulk reads a newspaper article (yes, this Hulk could actually read) and discovers he’s been replaced in the Avengers by Captain America. He jumps to the conclusion that his pal Rick Jones has left him to become Cap’s partner. Enraged, he heads off to New York to beat the tar out of his former group. But the FF encounters him first, and the Thing makes a valiant but hopeless stand against him. When the Avengers finally show up (in the next issue), they bump heads with the FF at first. The two groups can’t seem to coordinate their efforts, and neither is willing to concede authority to the other. The Avengers make it clear that they feel it is their responsibility to defeat their erstwhile team-mate. Ultimately though, the two super-teams unite to end the Hulk's destr
uctive New York romp.
Despite all their troubles with him, the team didn’t give up on the idea of bringing the Hulk back into the fold. When Iron Man and the other founders hand the reins of the group over to Captain America in Avengers #16, Iron Man encourages Cap to seek out the Hulk as a member. While Iron Man says that the Hulk's strength could be useful to Cap's less powerful team, there's also the sense that he might be trying to redress the past situation with the Hulk. In all of their previous encounters, Iron Man seemed to be the one Avenger who actually tried to reason with the Hulk. His sense of responsibility towards the Hulk has continued to current times, with disastrous results.
Honestly, it's unlikely that Earth's Mightiest could have kept the Hulk in line for any
length of time. His inherent nature abhors order and compliance (despite his tenure with the Defenders, which was less a team than a bunch of guys hanging out at Dr. Strange's sanctum). But they seemed to have a hard time of letting go of the idea of the Hulk as an Avenger. The Avengers are still stuck on this thought as late as Incredible Hulk #128 (in 1970 – Avengers #76 was out the same month). When the team is brought in by General Thunderbolt Ross to try to capture the Hulk, Goliath (aka Hawkeye) tells Ross, “Y’see, we’ve got two reasons to hogtie that green-skinned galoot! For his own sake---and so we can maybe add some more muscle to our team!” Predictably, they wind up spending more time trading punches than words.
Although he shows up and goes peacefully with the team to Olympus in Avengers #100, Hulk’s major contribution there is sitting around listening to music and putting the moves on a terrified Enchantress. But at least he didn’t smash anyone.
By the time of the Avengers - Defenders War, Hulk’s association with his original team is pretty much completely dissolved. He recalls being an Avenger – “didn’t like it!” – but no one is advocating for him to come back.
Probably his only real contribution to the team was not a direct one. He is, after all, responsible for the creation of She-Hulk, his cousin, who has been a valuable and loyal Avenger for many years. Although she too has had her bouts of unpredictability - just ask the Vision.
It does seem like whenever the Hulk has gone completely bananas, the Avengers have been there to take him down. To be fair though, it's not as if the Avengers haven't also tried to help the Hulk. Once the true nature of his transformation was known, they worked with other heroes like Mr. Fantastic to find a way to cure him. They showed up as character witnesses when he was on trial (Incredible Hulk #153), and they even supported his being granted amnesty later on for all his past misdeeds (Incredible Hulk #278).
But as the Hulk's destructive toll grew over the years, the heroes became less patient with him, less focused on finding a way to help him than on a way to stop him. This culminated with the decision by Iron Man, Mr. Fantastic, Blackbolt, and Dr. Strange to send the Hulk to an uninhabited planet, where he would be able to live out his life in peace. Unfortunately, the Green Goliath wound up instead on a war-torn world where he was enslaved and suffered both physically and emotionally. The Hulk returned to wreak even more destruction on Earth, particularly on those four heroes.
While it’s likely that the Hulk would never have been able to truly fit in to such an organized super-team, the inability of the Avengers to somehow find a place for him among them and curb his destructive tendencies could be seen as one of their greatest failures.
