What If: Gwen Stacy Hadn't Died?

Karen: We've seen a lot of Gwen Stacy the last few weeks, at least in our Brackets. Since her death seems to have been arguably the most significant event in the Bronze Age, let's roll it back and ask: what if she hadn't died? How would this have affected Spidey/Peter, and also, how would it have changed comics in the Bronze Age?

R.I.P. Jerry Robinson

Thank You Fa Lettin Me Be Mice Elf

Doug: How about a discussion on some of that sweet, sweet soul music? Man, lately I've been digging the Temptations' Ball of Confusion and Cloud Nine, some Sam Cooke, and for my money you can't beat the Otis Redding version of Hard to Handle. Curtis Mayfield's Freddie's Dead has also graced the iTouch recently.

And how about the influence of soul and R&B as it spread outward? In the past we've mentioned Rod Stewart's version of (I Know) I'm Losing You (hey, Rare Earth did that one A-OK too), and Karen is always loving on the Rolling Stones.

So let's hear it -- who do you like, discuss the influence of various artists, love on Motown for awhile, whatever you got today. And thanks in advance!

Really? Purple Pants ALL OF THE TIME?

The Incredible Hulk #212 (June 1977)
"Crushed by the Constrictor!"
Len Wein-Sal Buscema/Ernie Chan

Doug: Back to the Bronze Age lot for a double dose of Hulk done-in-ones. Yep, tune back in one week from today when we'll actually bring you the succeeding issue. I only got three Hulks in the eBay victory, and this next week will polish those off. So, without further ado...

Doug: We open with Jim Wilson on the streets of New York City. While pondering a huge wanted poster of the Hulk, a thug emerges from the shadows. As the attack commences, Wilson at first thinks it's a mugging. But we soon find out that there's a hit on Wilson's life, and this tough with the blackjack is the assassin. But Jim's no slouch and evades the initial onslaught. Clinging to an oh-so-conveniently-passing-by box truck, Jim makes his way far away. The thug, fearful now what will happen to him since he's failed, begins to run. However, a long silver cord snaps out and begins to reel our hood in -- by his neck. As he begs for mercy, the "boss" steps into view -- it's a super-baddie (or so the snake-themed longjohns would lead us to believe) calling himself the Constrictor. And he wants Jim Wilson real bad.

Doug: Scene shift then to a boarding house where we spy on Bruce Banner, frustrated because he's bored but looking nonetheless fetching in purple twill pants. Next to him sits a magician's top hat; I can only wonder. Suddenly in walks his landlady, April Sommers. Now I was never a Hulk reader, so I'm totally tabula rasa on this development in Banner's love life. Oops -- apparently she's not a love interest. The scene plays like something right out of the Hulk TV show, with Banner only just now -- after months of living in the apartment -- revealing his last name. Even then, he refuses to tell her anything more about his past. I had to laugh at this mag written over a generation before the Internet -- Banner gives his real name, and April doesn't even react. You just know nowadays she'd run back to her own apartment and Google the fool!

Doug: We next check in on one Betty Ross Talbot, on the lam from Gamma Base. Apparently last issue she'd run away to "find herself". She's evidently on the West coast somewhere, as we're told she's several thousand miles away from NYC. Betty basically reinvents herself in this several-panel vignette -- and runs up quite a hefty credit card bill! All the while she laments the influence, and indeed pressure, of the men in her life -- most notable her father, General "Thunderbolt" Ross. And hey, is it just me or are Sal's women evoking the voluptuous figures usually associated with his brother John?

Doug: Cut back to Jim Wilson, who's landed at a pay phone (this is so cool! Man, I miss these days!). Jim tries to 411 Bruce Banner, but no dice. So he asks for "Bruce Roberts", reaching for any alias Banner might have used. Luck is on his side, and he's patched through. Of course Banner is home, and they make arrangements to meet. But as they agree on a site, there's a commotion, and Jim's end of the line goes dead. Banner rushes out of the boarding house -- and you just know that pulse is starting to race...

Doug: Scene shift again, to the sea, where a SHIELD tanker has hauled a gamma-irradiated cylinder from the ocean floor. The scientist on board, a hipster named Sidney E. Levine, radios Col. Nick Fury who tells him to contact Gamma Base. More on that later, I'll assume.

Doug: Back to Jim Wilson, we're dropped in actually a few seconds before his conversation with Banner ended. We find out that the noise was one of the Constrictor's coils smashing the phone booth. Jim is stunned, and a second lash nearly cuts him. But as the phone booth has basically dissolved, Wilson makes tracks. But he's not match for our villain, who catches up to Jim outside of an abandoned building. As Jim emerges he's snared and dragged to a waiting car. At about that same time, Banner is on the scene. Stepping out of a cab, Banner sees the busted up phone booth and then the getaway car. Banner calls out, but the car bears down on him. And you know what's coming next -- Hulk time!

Doug: The Constrictor gets out of the car (using his snake-like speed) just as it hits the Hulk. This Constrictor fellow must be a bit dim, as he says he's "heard of" the Hulk -- must live on Planet X or something. Anyway, as Hulk is about to end this four pages early he hears noise coming from inside the smashed vehicle. Stooping low to peer inside, he sees Jim. Hulk tears the roof off the car and frees Jim -- Jim in turn fills the Hulk in on this little contract thing. The book ends with a few pages of smash 'em up action as the Hulk makes relatively short work of the Constrictor. There's a little luck involved, as the assassin meets his end by whipping his coils into an electrical box on a lamp post -- bad feedback, for sure. But all's well that ends well, and a monster and his "little buddy" are reunited, to walk off together into the sunset.

Doug: Again, as a very casual reader of the Hulk, I got what I would have expected from this story. The villain could have been whupped by Daredevil, so I wasn't kept in any real suspense as to the outcome. Sal's pencils were wonderfully reliable as usual and Ernie Chan was a welcome sight -- not overpowering Sal, but enhancing him along the way. Len Wein seemed to have everyone's voice down pretty well. So aside from the almost-constant scene changing, this was a fun little use of 20 minutes. And as I said above, the anchors to the late 1970's can't be beat!

For Your Fan-Friendly Pleasure -- the Open Forum is OPEN Today

Doug: Have at it, effendi! As we've done several times in the past, whoever is first to comment sets the topic du jour. Anyone else in later -- play nice and stick to our guest-moderator's thread choice. That being said, I think the last time we did this we actually ended up with multiple topics going due to two eager beavers getting in on this at about the same time. But for simplicity's sake, we'll stick to our usual rules.

Enjoy!

EDIT: Today's question is -- How important is continuity?

Discuss: Why Is Sub-Mariner So Much Cooler Than Aquaman?

Karen: You saw the question - we're not debating whether Sub-Mariner is cooler than Aquaman -that's a given. The question is, why is Marvel's Atlantean monarch so much more interesting than DC's sea-king?

Bracketology: The Championship!

Doug: It was really interesting to watch the semifinals unfold, with an almost exact percentage for the winners/losers in each race. Well, we're down to the end of this fun little jaunt through Back Issue! magazine's Top 40 events of the Bronze Age. As usual, have fun with the question!

Doug: I'll be back in one week with a little epilogue -- guaranteed to be full of controversy, and hopefully one last go-round of debate and conversation. Stay tuned!

Stepbrothers -- Fantastic Four #25

Fantastic Four #25 (April 1964)
"The Hulk vs. The Thing!"
Stan Lee-Jack Kirby/George Bell

Karen: I think we all felt a little cheated with Fantastic Four #12; we really didn't get the knock-down, drag-out fight we all wanted to see between the Hulk and the Thing. Well, get ready, because here it comes!

Karen: I have to say, I'm always taken back by how crude Kirby's art was at this stage. Although the dynamism is there, it is rough and, at times, I almost can't look at it. But the story still proves to be an exciting one.

Doug: Certainly we're not too far removed from the Atlas era, and I think Jack's art was stuck there. But as we all know, those pencils would enjoy a meteoric rise once under the influence of Vinnie Colletta and Joe Sinnott (although Vinnie was not a good fit for Kirby on the FF).

Karen: As I mentioned in a comment on another post the other day, it's like night and day once Sinnott started regularly inking Kirby. I like Colletta on Thor, but agree he was not the best fit for Kirby on FF. That was Sinnott. So, on with our story: we start at the Baxter Building, where Reed is trying to get the Thing to drink a serum he has "accidentally" developed, and which he believes will transform his friend back into Ben Grimm forever. But the obstinate Thing refuses to take it -he instead smashes it! Reed is furious with Ben, but Ben fears that his girlfriend Alicia loves the Thing, not Ben.
Doug: How about that opening splash, with Ben literally climbing the walls, and what the heck was Sue doing on the floor? Additionally, we see Johnny make a flame lasso -- that was a gimmick Kirby had employed in our previous review of FF #12. It's interesting that Ben's insecurities in these days oscillate between manifestations of rage, self-loathing, and intense depression. His character was really being molded in these first two years.
Karen: Who should show up but Alicia, carrying the day's paper. It says that the Avengers are seeking the Hulk, who has disappeared and been replaced by Captain America. Cut to New Mexico, where the green goliath carjacks a truck. Curled up in the back, the Hulk transforms back into - Bob Banner? Yes, Bob Banner! Hey, you try writing a whole line of comics and keeping all the names straight. After fleeing a road block, Banner agonizes over why he keeps turning into the Hulk -and then turns into the Hulk, and jumps off in search of his desert lab.

Doug: The only "benefit of the doubt" that I can toss Stan's way is this: wasn't the Hulk's alter ego Robert Bruce Banner? I know in the television series he was David Bruce Banner, but I'm thinking in the Silver Age his first name was at one point Robert. But really, no one caught that? And didn't Stan pound it into the ground in those first few panels?

Karen: If I recall correctly, they added the 'Robert' after this issue, to sort of explain away the mistake. I could be wrong but I thought that was the story. Next we look in on the Avengers, who have been tracking down their former team-mate. They discover the truck he was riding in in New Mexico and wonder what he's up to. Rick Jones comments that the Hulk must be heading back to his lab, which elicits puzzled responses from Cap and Iron Man, who can't imagine the brutish Hulk doing anything that involves brain power. But indeed, the Hulk IS in his lab, and pretty much tearing up the place, due to his hatred of "Bob" Banner. He starts tossing things out of his pockets to rid himself of everything Banner. I had to chuckle when I realized two of the things were a book of matches and a pipe -all brainy types smoke pipes! Hulk is about to toss away a newspaper clipping but pauses to read it (remember -he wasn't an idiot yet) and becomes enraged when he discovers that the Avengers have replaced him with Captain America. Thinking that Rick has also deserted him, the furious brute decides to go to New York and destroy the Avengers.
Doug: The panel sample of Cap and Rick that you've provided is interesting to me -- I assume you snatched it from the FF DVD-ROM. I read this story from the book in which I first saw it -- Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles (way back in the Origins of Marvel Comics series of tpbs). In that version of this story, Cap's headgear is just that -- it does not extend into his chain mail. Here it looks like he has fabric on his neck. So I was thinking just now that Kirby was drawing Cap as he had back in the War years.
Doug: What did you think about the Hulk bounding all the way from New Mexico to New York City? Tireless, maybe -- but that's almost 3000 miles!
Karen: Hey, he's the strongest one there is! Of course he can do it! Back at the Baxter Building, Reed collapses with a fever. We learn he has been working with viruses! Was there any area of science that Richards didn't excel in? He's like the Professor on Gilligan's Island. Sue and Ben tend to Reed while Johnny heads off in the Fantasticar to get a doctor. Flying over the city, however, he sees the Hulk on a rampage and foolishly decides to take him on. The Torch lands and attacks, but the Hulk shatters the ground and then grabs the Torch -whose flame has grown weak! Boy, it sure seems like Johnny could barely maintain his flame for more than a few minutes back in the early sixties. Johnny apparently passes out.

Doug: So as a plot vehicle, why do you suppose Stan and Jack chose to hold Reed out of the fight? Was it just to show us that Ben could fight on his own without Reed calling all the shots? Johnny was about worthless, wasn't he? Maybe he should have used the flame lasso...

Karen: Yeah, I think all the other FFers were put on the sidelines just so we could have a one on one match-up. I'm always surprised when I read these early issues just how weak certain characters were -mainly the women, but here Johnny as well. I think Iceman also was treated pretty badly early on. I would suppose it is because they are youngsters, but I don't recall Spidey getting that treatment, unless he was sick. The city summons the FF to fight the Hulk, but Ben tells the authorities they need a doctor for Reed. Reed tells both Ben and Sue to go, warning Ben that "The Hulk's strength has never been measured! I'm afraid he's far stronger than you, old friend! You'll need your wits...don't let him grab you..." Ben and Sue jump in a police car (!) and head off to face the Hulk. Johnny is up again, but his flame is still weak -only his hand is aflame - and the Hulk grabs the youngster in one hand and looks ready to hurl him away! Sue surrounds Johnny with a force field but the Hulk jumps high into the air, and Sue passes out from the effort of maintaining the field! It seems that both Storm siblings were fairly limited in their abilities back in the old days. The Thing tells a soldier to take care of Sue, and then goes to face the Hulk -now it's getting good!

Doug: By the way, that was one ugly police car. If memory serves, Sue's force field came around in issue #13 (EDIT: Well, memory doesn't serve. As pointed out by faithful reader/commenter Edo Bosnar, Sue's abilities to make other objects/people invisible, as well as to use her powers to create forcefields, was first shown in Fantastic Four #22. I am getting too old for this...), which was right after the last story we reviewed. So this is a new wrinkle. However, as she'll eventually become arguably the most powerful member of the Four, here she's still Silver Age fodder for Stan's sexism.

Karen: One thing I noticed is that a lot of words are exchanged between our two combatants -I expect that of the Thing but not the Hulk. Of course this was a Hulk that was basically of normal intelligence. Still, I don't expect him to say things like, "Fool! You're just a muscular freak! But I'm the Hulk!" Ben lands the first blow and knocks the Hulk off his feet. Naively, Ben thinks that his best bet is to wear the Hulk out. Boy is he in for a surprise. Ben bobs and weaves like the boxer he is, but ultimately, the Hulk grabs him. As Reed warned, this is not a good thing, as old Greenskin leaps into the air and tosses Ben right at a building. Ben grabs onto the roof edge, only to hang on for dear life as the Hulk rocks the building back and forth! Yes, it's incredibly silly, but fun.

Doug: In the preface to this story (again, in Marvel's Greatest Superhero Battles), Stan does mention that the Hulk is perhaps the Marvel character who has changed the most since his inception. The Man credits writers and artists who came after he and Jack for said evolution, and doesn't besmirch them. What do you think -- change for the better in making the Hulk dumb? I was somewhat amazed throughout this story at how strong the Hulk was portrayed. I know I've read many stories of him doing impossible feats, but there was a real sense of hopelessness for Ben in this tale. And yes, that was one tough building. Sheesh...

Karen: The Hulk of my youth was indeed the childlike, 'dumb' Hulk, so that was all I knew. But when I began to read older stories I really appreciated the non-dumb version more. I think the writers of the dumb Hulk were very limited with what they could do with him. It seems to me that a lot of his stories tended to revolve more around his supporting cast. I think there's more options with the normal intelligence, tough guy Hulk.

Karen: Ben decides to just let gravity work for him and lets go of the building, planning to crash down on the Hulk. But the Hulk is faster than he thinks and once again takes hold of him, this time stuffing him through a manhole. Unknown to the Hulk however, Ben is right next to a thick electrical cable, and he uses it to shock his foe momentarily. But nothing stuns the Hulk for long. Across town, Reed struggles to get to his feet, hearing of the battle from the TV newscast. He bemoans the fact that the Hulk is too strong for Ben, but there's nothing he can do about it. I like the way he's drawn here, with his arm elongated but in a weird S shape. He really looks out of it.

Doug: Agreed. Despite the sometimes clumsy-looking art, Reed's illness is well-played. By the way, as you've mentioned the art at the top, I'd add that in this issue Ben really seems like he's at his Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe-listed height of 6'0". However, he's not bulky at all! C'mon, Jack -- feed the boy!

Karen: For some crazy reason, the Yancy Street Gang decides the best way to help out the Thing is to roll a truck down a hill at the Hulk. However, although the Hulk gets knocked into the bed of the runaway pickup, so does the Thing, and the two of them wind up in the river. Ben manages to swim to a motor boat and take off, giving him some time to figure out a new plan. He thinks he's lost the Hulk, but suddenly a huge green fist comes up through the boat! The two of them wind up at the George Washington Bridge and Ben manages to wrap a huge cable around the Hulk, temporarily immobilizing him. But Ben now realizes that although he is nearly exhausted, the Hulk keeps getting stronger. The Hulk strains and snaps the cable, and pounds Ben down to the ground. Then he takes off, saying he's going to find the Avengers.

Doug: I guess it was never said exactly in what part of the city the battle played out, but that truck from Yancy Street rolled a potentially very long way!

Karen: Picking himself painfully up, the Thing is stunned by his defeat. "He beat me! That big, brainless, muscle-bound creep beat me!! It...it...never happened before!" Shaking off his shame, the Thing bravely heads back to face the Hulk. So here in this early tale, we're seeing the situation that would continue even to today: The Thing as the never-say-die underdog in his match-ups against the more powerful Hulk.

Doug: Ben Grimm, the original Rocky Balboa... love it!

Byrne Avengers Art Commissions -- at Giant-Size Geek!

Doug: Hey, friends -- if you haven't been to Giant-Size Geek yet today, get yerself on over there and check out some EXTREMELY cool commissions by Mr. John Byrne of our favorite Assemblers. You'll be glad you did!