Wednesday, July 27, 2011
Inaugural Post -- Discuss...
Doug: Hey, here's another chance for you to sound off (which is what makes this place a fun little oasis in the midst of a sometimes mundane life). We'll start an every-now-and-then series where we throw out a very simple, yet could-be controversial topic. No ground rules, just your initial reactions. So without further ado...
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31 comments:
Like most Bronze Age Babies, I expect, I have a fondness for Namor's Savage Sub-Mariner costume although I haven't read any of those issues. His complex relationship with that other monarch, the one from Latveria, was always interesting.However, Namor's biggest role in the Bronze Age was probably in the Invaders, where he had that cool flying ship. It's quite comical that Roy Thomas made such a plot point of the colour of Subby's trunks in the Invaders Annual.
Although it's post-BA, I never quite bought Namor as an Avenger. It's a pity that this Golden Age great isn't that popular today, considering he patented the "surly loner" routine decades before that over-exposed runt, Wolverine.
I've always thought of Namor as more like Quicksilver, without the sister. As to why he's not more popular, I think that aquatic characters are at a disadvantage. The need to be near water draws them away from all of the land characters, and also serves as a weakness if they are too vulnerable to losing strength as they dry out. I think both he and Aquaman have great potential as characters who rule over 70% of the earth's surface, almost all of it unexplored, offering great possibilities for both writer and artist. It's almost like outer space. And yet, I don't think either's potential has ever been realized. There always seems to be this need to relate them to land people.
Well, he is quite buff. You'd think MORE than just Sue Richards would have the hots for him. I mean, c'mon ladies.. Seafood.
Seriously.., I think if there is one character which didn't really catch on as a major title player, it's Namor. Relegated to the FF 'family of players'.., much like the Surfer. At least the Defenders kept him in action as a guest star throughout the Bronze.
Sorry, didn't complete my thoughts (here at work..). In regards to measuring his status, I just based it on him as an early Marvel character ('66 Marvel cartoons), stories in the various Silver comics, then his own Bronze series, which went for a reasonable amount of time.
My favorite ish with him was the Avengers 262, where Hercules got him fighting, just to break him out of his doldrums.
When Namor finally realized Hercules's ruse, the huge smile he flashed was truely superb, VERY rare for Namor..
The thing about Namor that's always bugged me is the fact that he's such a jerk. I know that's his schtick, but c'mon -- it gets old. I don't think there's a doubt in any of our minds that he's a hero, but then he keeps getting into allegiances with all sorts of unsavory characters and/or plots. From a writer's point of view, I suppose that makes him interesting.
David, I love that issue of Avengers! It was among the first several that I purchased when resuming this addiction that I have. My memory fades, but I may actually have a pencil rough from Buscema for a page from that issue.
Dougie, I also think of Namor in the suit that Reed Richards designed for him. And dbutler, while you are spot on with your points about water-based characters, to me the suit was the way out of that. I guess over time they didn't like the idea.
Good stuff, gang -- keep 'em coming!
Doug
I think of Namor in a similar way I think of David Crosby. They work well as a Defender or CSNY-er, but they're not very interesting as "solo" acts.
The difference between Namor and other "loner" characters is that he's an egomaniacal d*ckhead. That gets old after a few panels, unless the Hulk & Nighthawk are there to chime in & take him down a peg or two.
My intro to Namor was the 1979 version of 'Tales To Astonish'. It reprinted Namor's series from the 60s. I liked John Buscema's art, but that was about it. But I always loved this cover:
http://www.comics.org/issue/113740/cover/4/
I later went back and got a bunch of 'Super-Villain Team-Up',mainly because I'm a Doom fan and I've always liked the idea of a series that features a villain as the main character. The series was okay, but the stories & art were very uneven. Plus, a series that has multiple hyphens in its title doesn't have a chance.
I really like the character, especially in his Golden age adventures as drawn by the great Bill Everett. I think one of the problems with his Marvel age incarnation is the same as Superman, He's just too damn strong. Writers write him as almost being a match for the Hulk, but then if they need to weaken him, they pull out his kriptonite, dry air, he weakens. It's just too basic. Also he shares a similar problem as Black Panther; not being from America, he has no real stake in what goes on there, so why bother saving these people? Roger Stern did a very good job incorporating him into the Avengers. He made Subby an outcast from his land and these people befriended him and took him in. Stern also had the intelligence to pit him against dangers bigger than himself.
Like J. A. Morris, I also read the Tales to Astonish reprints of his Silver age comic and found it pretty boring reading, despite having the dream team of Thomas/Buscema.
I always liked Subby in a group, because he adds tension and conflict. But on his own, I never really cared for him.
I know i am in the minority but I have never cared for the blue/black suit.
Karen
I never much cared for the Submariner as a solo act but I thought he worked well in team books like Defenders, Invaders and even the latter-day John Buscema run in Avengers. As long as he had characters like Cap or Doc Strange to play off of, he could be an asset to the story-telling.
Probably my favorite was the Invaders issue where Cap is battling a Nazi Frankenstein Monster in a castle. Cap discovers the creature isn't evil, just mistunderstood. Then Namor bursts in and starts pulverizing the monster because, hey, it's a monster in a Nazi uniform. What was he supposed to do?
My problem with the Submariner was always pretty basic: It's a guy running around in nothing but a teeny-tiny green speedo. Dammit Namor, put some pants on!
Namor only ever worked for me in The Defenders and I just couldn't be interested in him anywhere else.
It just worked when he'd threaten Doc Strange never to ask for his help again, and storm off like a petulant teenager.
Remember that 'Nightmare On Bald Mountain' story where he & Ol' Greenskin start beating the crap out of each other in a dark alley, and when the lights come on they both shout "You!" Makes me laugh every time.
Namor as David Crosby? Now I have an image of him crooning a bubbly version of "Triad" to Dorma and poor Diane Arliss. He's an Atlantean prince- he totally would be up for that!
Dougie, I soon as I hit "publish", I knew I'd regret that comparison!
If Namor is Crosby, I guess Hulk is Stills, Dr. Strange is Nash(the sensible one who everyone gets along with and helps settle disputes) and Silver Surfer would be Young, sort of a part of the group/team but he pops in and out and never sticks around for more than an issue/album or two.
"By the time we got to Woodstock
We were half a million strong."
Yeah, the Defenders taking it on the road to a hippie love-in. Only Gerber could write that one...
Not exactly the direction I thought this conversation would take, but I'm loving it!!
Doug
Defenders and 'hippie-love'..??
In the flowered VW bus with Luke Cage and Valkyrie, and their guru Gerber at the helm..??
I'm SO there, fellow Marvellite flower-powerers...
Getting back to comics:
Another reason Namor doesn't work is he has dumb villains like Captain Barracuda and Dr. Dorcas. And others like Tiger Shark, Orka and Attuma are a bit too similar:water-based bad guys with super-strength.
J.A. --
So is that dumb villains, as in "stupid concept"? Because I'm thinking Tiger Shark and Orka don't have an over-abundance of gray matter...
I like Namor a heckuva lot better than Aquaman, however. I have no idea how to make Aquaman interesting -- he was even a stiff on SuperFriends.
Doug
Man, I'm late to this party!
Anyway, I've always liked Namor, but I agree with a few others here that he doesn't work well in his own book (although, granted, I haven't read any of Byrne's series but I've heard some positive reviews...)
What I like about him is that he can either be a good guy or bad buy, pretty much depending on his mood - and that opens up so many storytelling possibilities, and makes him perfect for the Defenders. And yes, it makes him much more interesting than Aquaman.
By the way, david_b's comment about the Defenders in a flowered VW bus brought a smile to my face. I would have loved a Defenders story with them all piling into a VW bus with Doc Strange at the wheel, making a cross-country road trip...
And The Elf With A Gun would be hitching by the side of the road, and kill 'em all!!
I agree with Doug, Namor is more interesting than Aquaman. The only version of Aquaman I like is the one in the recent 'Brave And The Bold' cartoon series.
Doug said...:
"So is that dumb villains, as in "stupid concept"? Because I'm thinking Tiger Shark and Orka don't have an over-abundance of gray matter..."
They're "dumb villains" and "stupid concepts" all at the same time!
Edo, I read the Byrne series when it was first published, can't say it was very good or memorable.
Do I recall that in the Byrne Namor series that it was centered on Namor making a fortune from his movie studio? I'm thinking there was some throwback to that old storyline from the FF.
You know what the problem is with a reboot of a series? A whole new cast of supporting characters, that's what. And in the case of that Namor series, I wasn't so big on it that I felt like I wanted to invest a whole lot of time warming to new creations.
Case study: Peter Parker, the Spectacular Spider-Man was able to mix in the old cast from Amazing with just a few newbies here and there, so it was seamless. There's an example of how I'd prefer that get done. For what my opinion's worth.
Doug
Byrne's series centered on Namor buying a corporation called Oracle and fighting bad guys who polluted the oceans. He fought the Griffin, which was sorta fun, and eventually the supporting cast from the old Iron Fist series showed up & became recurring characters.
I was huge "Byrne Victim" at the time, otherwise I would've given up earlier than I eventually did.
I liked that Namor series too, especially Headhunter but I didn't think it counted as Bronze Age. I also got exasperated when Byrne retconned Namorita as a clone of Namora. Because, obviously, mutants breeding true is too unbelievable...
It's also surprising Namora has such prominence these days.
One story that might qualify as BA would be the reprint of the Thing/Namor battle in Giant Super-Hero Team-up Treasury. Beautifully drawn and poignant.
I've recently read two BA Aquaman specials-from 71 and '76- but the character is quite colourless; I do like the cartoons though, especially "The Trio of Terror".
Stan Lee Presents: the Dynamic Defenders in " I Dreamed I Saw The Silver Surfer Flying". Count me in for Doc Strange's Hippy Bus to Woodstock.It sounds far out!
Wow....Namor as Crosby....now there's an analogy! Croz kicked out of the Byrds around the same time Namor got his own book, arrogance with a cap "A", and, if I remember correctly, Byrne addressed / fixed the amnesia/irrationality problems around the same time Crosby got his new liver!!!
Subby & the original Human Torch were the first Marvel Superheroes, although really they were more anti-heroes -- even before Marvel became Marvel their heroes were different. It was one of Stan Lee's cannier moves to revive Namor as a villain, albeit a sympathetic one, for the FF. A bit odd, however, that when he had Subby & Captain America meet, however briefly, in Avengers #4, Lee apparently forgot that at the very least Cap & Subby would have known about one another whether or not they were ever teamed up in any Timely Comics from the WWII era. I know it was retconned later that Cap and Namor were both reputedly suffering from bad memories at the time -- at least as bad as Stan's!
Anyhow, I actually liked those Silver Age stories with art by Colan, John Buscema or Marie Severin, but Subby's not an easy character to love. Even in the Defenders he was often caustic, more so than the Hulk even. Anyone know whether his departure from the Defenders was due to the "non-team's" scribes decision or a request by Roy Thomas due to his plans to use him in both the Invaders and Super-Villain Team-Up?
I loved the Invaders, even tho' I didn't particularly care for Frank Robbins' art, but for some reason it seemed a better fit for that mag than in Captain America -- maybe the switch from Sal Buscema's style to Robbins' was just too jarring. SVTU was occasionally interesting, particularly when Englehart wrote it, but not particularly great. Overall, for me Namor worked best in groups when he had a strong reason to want to be part of one, whether to fight the Axis Powers as part of the Invaders or to help an ally as in the Defenders/ Avengers clash. Otherwise, well, like the Black Panther, he is supposed to be a king and it does seem rather irresponsible for either of them to neglact their regal duties for extended periods of time. Even aside from that, Subby seems to be one of the more difficult characters to write in a consistantly compelling long-lasting series. I remember reading some letters in his mag circa 1973 referring to him as the Sob-Mariner because he was suffering through one tragedy after another. He and Spidey could have commisserated over losing their shared woes!
Super-sleek Namor compared to David Crosby?? The mind boggles...but yes, I know, we're not talking physiques here.
This could lead to a whole set of posts where we try to match a super-hero to his corresponding musical or motion picture doppleganger...If Cap was Beatle, who would he be?! Oy....
Karen
I didn't like Namor much when I was a kid mainly because he didn't have a cool costume. A dude in a bathing suit just didn't fire my imagination very much.
The only time I was ever a devoted reader of his solo adventures was when John Byrne was handling him in the early 90's. Some really great stories came out of that run. Like the original Invaders reunion and the return of Iron Fist. I dropped the book after Byrne's last issue. I never could stomach Jae Lee's splattery over inked art style.
With the exception of the Byrne series, I like Namor best when he's used as an antagonist. He was responsible for some great super hero slugfests back in the day. My favorite being Daredevil #7 with art by Wally Wood. I also really liked his many battles with Iron Man.
Since Pete mentioned Elf with a Gun, I kind got an idea for a story hook: learning of these mysterious random shootings in small towns and suburbs throughout the country, Doc Strange (designated driver) and Nighthawk (someone has to pay for the gas, seedy motels, beef jerky and burgers) load the rest of the Defenders (Hulk, Val, Hellcat) into the VW bus in attempt to seek him out and stop his killing spree - Silver Surfer occasionally drops in on them at rest-stops, and Namor appears whenever they're at any seashore.
p.s. Sorry for the potential threadjack...
p.p.s. the conflicting opinions of Byrne's Namor is really intriguing me. Anyone know if it's been collected in anything besides that Namor Visionaries volume?
Namor is an intriguing character, one who I believe has the potential to be explored much more deeply somewhere. His guest appearances have generally appealed to me more than his solo stories. For example, his role behind the scenes with the Inhumans in re-uniting Sue and Reed Richards in Fantastic Four #149.
Love the Woodstock Defenders; would they notice the odd, cigar-smoking duck hitchhiking on the way?
Getting back to the 'original thread'.. (..lol..), as an 'original character' and despite the 'water aspect', Namor, much like Aquaman over at DC were both Kings of these 'underwater kingdoms'..
I ponder as to why more rich depth wasn't written in and explored as was with Thor and the Panther in their respective 'palaces'. Not to say Thor was a ruler, but still you had a trove of stories dealing with Asgard.
Granted, having hords of followers underwater may not have been as awe-inspiring horsebacked legions over hills as such (thinking 'Braveheart' moments here...) as in the pages of Conan, Thor perhaps, etc.. But with all the potential of royal deception stories, political/palace intrique, I'm still somewhat baffled that, as J.A. mentioned, Subby (and Aquaman) was given 'dumb villains'. I do recall Subby having stories like that, but how come it didn't hold as much interest over generations..? Certainly the vintage Thor stories of old still hold up. Was it simply a case of running out of ideas..?
You'd think Namor would have went up against Doom more back in the Silver Days, since Doom always wanted to rule the world, and oceans making up most of it..
Just pondering.
All the references to Namor being a villain are off the mark. He has been at odds with humanity at times but he always has a reason for it. Humans bombed the heck out of his people, for one, and then polluted his domain to add insult to injury. He is more like a hero in the tradition of Greek tragedy, often derailed due to his hubris.
And Aquaman is awesome, it's the WRITERS that suck eggs!
The Sub-Mariner is one of Marvel's best characters. He's got a distinctive look, environment, skill set, and rich history. But for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to get over with fans like many other less interesting heroes do.
He functions well as a baddie or as a hero, a truly complex figure. That's rare.
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