Karen: A new Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice trailer came out late Wednesday, so if you want to stay unspoiled, just ignore this post. If you want to know what's what, proceed oh true believer...
Karen: Your hosts exchanged some email remarks about this trailer yesterday. Without ado, here they are, and please jump into the comments with your own thoughts.
Karen: Thoughts on the new trailer? I just find myself not excited for this one. I am wondering if I have prejudiced myself. But I look at it and I dislike Jesse Eisenberg's Lex greatly, I think Doomsday looks like uninspired, mid-90s CGI...I don't know. Curious what you think.
Doug: Ha! I was just texting with my son about it. I get pretty excited for the Marvel trailers (well, nothing related to Deadpool
), but all the publicity for BvS leaves me flat. The only positive I'd say is that for wanting the look for Batman of TDKR, they nailed it.
I admittedly watched the trailer without sound the first time, so will have to correct that. Not sure it will make a difference. And I'm still put off by the messianic imagery surrounding Superman. Just bugs me.
Karen: I only watched it once on my phone this morning, but I am just not sold on it. I ask myself if part of the problem is because I grew up a Marvel fan, but I honestly don't think so. I loved the JLA cartoons and I would welcome a well-done live action version of the DC characters. I re-saw a good chunk of Man of Steel over the weekend and although I like Henry Cavill, I felt they got just about everything about Superman wrong. That's the feeling I get from this trailer too. There's a sort of ugliness to it all that rubs me the wrong way.
Speaking of Batman's look, both my husband and I noticed that in this and the mini-trailer they put out a few days ago, Batman looks a lot like he did in the Red Son graphic novel. I wonder if they are utilizing that story or at least elements of it in some way?
Doug: Here is a text from my 24-year old son [Yeah it's just going to be bad]:
Blogger's summary of the trailer:
Act I: Bruce Wayne is Batman and makes his way to Metropolis where him and Clark Kent/Superman get feisty like two little school girls. Act II: Lex Luthor does something to make them turn against each other. It’s obvious Kyrptonite is involved or else Batman wouldn’t stand a chance. They even show Superman de-masking Batman, a detail that is so unnecessary to know going into the movie. Act III: They kiss and make up to defeat Lex Luthor’s monsters and have a beef off to see who is going to slay Wonder Woman.
Yes, that seems to be what I saw!
Karen: Your son is right to the point! My 20 year old nephew, who loves all this stuff, also posted on Facebook "Wow, what an awful trailer." So I guess it's not just us old curmudgeons complaining.
Do you think part of it is that we really don't want to see our heroes fighting each other? But then, how do we explain the excitement over Civil War? I suppose you could argue that Marvel has built that universe up so that we have had many films with these guys on the same side, so we have an investment in the characters and it means more for them to be turning against each other. But I don't think it's that either.
I think it just doesn't look fun. It looks like it's going to be a slog through a dark, ugly, unpleasant world and I don't have much interest in going there.
Doug: One comment we made to each other was the continued destruction of cities in the DC films. I remarked that at least the Avengers felt guilty about it. This was one of our knocks on Man of Steel, if I recall.
It would not bother me to wait to see this. I felt strange about not going to see Fantastic Four -- shoot, is that even going to be released on video? Let's say I'm over it. I don't care if I ever see Man of Steel again, and the last Batman trilogy really wore on me. By the end they were not enjoyable. I don't think Batman should be portrayed on film as even close to the 1966 version; but c'mon -- the man could have at least a little personality. I guess I would have thought that grim-n-gritty would have gone out of style after 20 years.
And I'll admit to being ignorant on the following posit, but DC sure seems to find success in their television universe (which I don't watch). I'm just not sure why they can't translate that to big budget motion pictures.
And in regard to the basic premise of the heroes battling: I think we accept it in the Marvel Universe because that's the way it was almost from Day One. Witness the Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch in the Golden Age, and at the dawn of the Silver Age the internal bickering within the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and the X-Men. Stan tapped into that tension and played it for all it was worth. But the DC we grew up on, at least up to 1985, was unicorns and rainbows. So although Dark Knight, etc. was 30 years ago, it still seems out of place in the DCU to me.
Karen: Both film franchises find themselves in a position of having their characters deal with the repercussions of the massive destruction they have caused. Superman, for the destruction of Metropolis in his first film, and the Avengers, for what happened to Sokovia in Age of Ultron. Yet, as you mentioned below, with the Avengers, I always felt they were doing their very best to save everyone and minimize the devastation, whereas in Man of Steel, it never seemed like Superman gave a damn about the utter demolition of the city that he was contributing to. Never an effort to get people out of harm's way (maybe that one soldier) or to prevent the Kryptonians from destroying the city. So I sort of see Superman as part of the problem but I feel the Avengers really still are the good guys. I suppose we'll have to see how Batman v. Superman addresses what Superman/Clark has done to pay the city back. Assuming he does. Of course, the Superman I know never would be in this position in the first place.
I'd like to see a version of Batman similar to the one in the JLA or Batman animated series -a smart guy, a driven guy, but one who still has a strong sense of compassion at his core. That has been missing for me. And of course, no more grunting voices...Bat-fleck is also way too hulking but that's Dark Knight for ya.
I have been watching Flash, and still watch Supergirl, although I am not impressed with it. Flash at least has that sense of fun and heroism that seems to be missing from the Batman films and (so far) Superman. But the TV and movie DC universes seem light years apart.
Doug: You know, it's funny what you said earlier about investing in the characters, because although I've never been an Iron Man fan outside of the Avengers I have loved Robert Downey, Jr.'s portrayal of the character in the films. Portrayal only -- I really don't like the MCU Iron Man. I love Captain America, and Chris Evans has brought the character to life. Part of the draw for me from the Civil War trailer is Tony Stark's odd point of view that he and Cap had been "friends". I would certainly disagree with that in the MCU, so I'm anxious to see how it turns out.
So that Batman and Superman are going to fight... cinematically there's no investment in any prior relationship. One look at it and you know you're not dealing with "World's Finest". Do I really care that they are going to be at each other's throats?
DC should not neglect that they do a pretty good job of feature-length animated movies, and I'd argue that some of those are better than the live-action stuff. There's just no market for such things in the theaters.
Karen: We know Batman and Superman are going to fight, and then they (and Wonder Woman) are going to team up to fight Doomsday, but yeah, since we've only seen Superman in one film before and the other two not at all, how much will we care? It will be interesting to see if DC can pull off this sort of reverse version of the way Marvel did things.
On this Civil War tangent -I do agree that the tension between Cap and Stark was always there, with little friendship evident. Maybe they had a form of mutual respect. But I was perplexed at the end of Age of Ultron when everything was hunky dory between the Big Three. I saw most of Iron Man 3 again over Thanksgiving (this is what you do when you're sick, watch TV), and while I don't hate it as much as I used to, Stark's never been a bigger jerk than in that film. He really is a selfish, arrogant ass most of the time! It's only Downey's charm that sells the character.
I watched the Batman v Superman trailer again, and I just want to say again I really dislike every scene with Jesse Eisenberg. I can applaud the idea of trying to come up with a different take on Luthor, but this Luthor is too crazy -he's like a Joker-Luthor. And must everything be so dingy? I miss color!
Doug: I have to admit that watching the trailer for the first time without sound -- I had no idea at first that it was Luthor! By the end of the clip I figured it out. So now we get maniacal Luthor, tattooed Joker... at least on Gotham I can see the Penguin in the portrayal.
Karen: Thoughts on the new trailer? I just find myself not excited for this one. I am wondering if I have prejudiced myself. But I look at it and I dislike Jesse Eisenberg's Lex greatly, I think Doomsday looks like uninspired, mid-90s CGI...I don't know. Curious what you think.
Doug: Ha! I was just texting with my son about it. I get pretty excited for the Marvel trailers (well, nothing related to Deadpool
), but all the publicity for BvS leaves me flat. The only positive I'd say is that for wanting the look for Batman of TDKR, they nailed it.I admittedly watched the trailer without sound the first time, so will have to correct that. Not sure it will make a difference. And I'm still put off by the messianic imagery surrounding Superman. Just bugs me.
Speaking of Batman's look, both my husband and I noticed that in this and the mini-trailer they put out a few days ago, Batman looks a lot like he did in the Red Son graphic novel. I wonder if they are utilizing that story or at least elements of it in some way?
Doug: Here is a text from my 24-year old son [Yeah it's just going to be bad]:
Blogger's summary of the trailer:
Act I: Bruce Wayne is Batman and makes his way to Metropolis where him and Clark Kent/Superman get feisty like two little school girls. Act II: Lex Luthor does something to make them turn against each other. It’s obvious Kyrptonite is involved or else Batman wouldn’t stand a chance. They even show Superman de-masking Batman, a detail that is so unnecessary to know going into the movie. Act III: They kiss and make up to defeat Lex Luthor’s monsters and have a beef off to see who is going to slay Wonder Woman.
Yes, that seems to be what I saw!
Karen: Your son is right to the point! My 20 year old nephew, who loves all this stuff, also posted on Facebook "Wow, what an awful trailer." So I guess it's not just us old curmudgeons complaining.
Do you think part of it is that we really don't want to see our heroes fighting each other? But then, how do we explain the excitement over Civil War? I suppose you could argue that Marvel has built that universe up so that we have had many films with these guys on the same side, so we have an investment in the characters and it means more for them to be turning against each other. But I don't think it's that either.
I think it just doesn't look fun. It looks like it's going to be a slog through a dark, ugly, unpleasant world and I don't have much interest in going there.
Doug: One comment we made to each other was the continued destruction of cities in the DC films. I remarked that at least the Avengers felt guilty about it. This was one of our knocks on Man of Steel, if I recall.
It would not bother me to wait to see this. I felt strange about not going to see Fantastic Four -- shoot, is that even going to be released on video? Let's say I'm over it. I don't care if I ever see Man of Steel again, and the last Batman trilogy really wore on me. By the end they were not enjoyable. I don't think Batman should be portrayed on film as even close to the 1966 version; but c'mon -- the man could have at least a little personality. I guess I would have thought that grim-n-gritty would have gone out of style after 20 years.
And I'll admit to being ignorant on the following posit, but DC sure seems to find success in their television universe (which I don't watch). I'm just not sure why they can't translate that to big budget motion pictures.
And in regard to the basic premise of the heroes battling: I think we accept it in the Marvel Universe because that's the way it was almost from Day One. Witness the Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch in the Golden Age, and at the dawn of the Silver Age the internal bickering within the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and the X-Men. Stan tapped into that tension and played it for all it was worth. But the DC we grew up on, at least up to 1985, was unicorns and rainbows. So although Dark Knight, etc. was 30 years ago, it still seems out of place in the DCU to me.
Karen: Both film franchises find themselves in a position of having their characters deal with the repercussions of the massive destruction they have caused. Superman, for the destruction of Metropolis in his first film, and the Avengers, for what happened to Sokovia in Age of Ultron. Yet, as you mentioned below, with the Avengers, I always felt they were doing their very best to save everyone and minimize the devastation, whereas in Man of Steel, it never seemed like Superman gave a damn about the utter demolition of the city that he was contributing to. Never an effort to get people out of harm's way (maybe that one soldier) or to prevent the Kryptonians from destroying the city. So I sort of see Superman as part of the problem but I feel the Avengers really still are the good guys. I suppose we'll have to see how Batman v. Superman addresses what Superman/Clark has done to pay the city back. Assuming he does. Of course, the Superman I know never would be in this position in the first place.
I'd like to see a version of Batman similar to the one in the JLA or Batman animated series -a smart guy, a driven guy, but one who still has a strong sense of compassion at his core. That has been missing for me. And of course, no more grunting voices...Bat-fleck is also way too hulking but that's Dark Knight for ya.
I have been watching Flash, and still watch Supergirl, although I am not impressed with it. Flash at least has that sense of fun and heroism that seems to be missing from the Batman films and (so far) Superman. But the TV and movie DC universes seem light years apart.
Doug: You know, it's funny what you said earlier about investing in the characters, because although I've never been an Iron Man fan outside of the Avengers I have loved Robert Downey, Jr.'s portrayal of the character in the films. Portrayal only -- I really don't like the MCU Iron Man. I love Captain America, and Chris Evans has brought the character to life. Part of the draw for me from the Civil War trailer is Tony Stark's odd point of view that he and Cap had been "friends". I would certainly disagree with that in the MCU, so I'm anxious to see how it turns out.
So that Batman and Superman are going to fight... cinematically there's no investment in any prior relationship. One look at it and you know you're not dealing with "World's Finest". Do I really care that they are going to be at each other's throats?
DC should not neglect that they do a pretty good job of feature-length animated movies, and I'd argue that some of those are better than the live-action stuff. There's just no market for such things in the theaters.
On this Civil War tangent -I do agree that the tension between Cap and Stark was always there, with little friendship evident. Maybe they had a form of mutual respect. But I was perplexed at the end of Age of Ultron when everything was hunky dory between the Big Three. I saw most of Iron Man 3 again over Thanksgiving (this is what you do when you're sick, watch TV), and while I don't hate it as much as I used to, Stark's never been a bigger jerk than in that film. He really is a selfish, arrogant ass most of the time! It's only Downey's charm that sells the character.
I watched the Batman v Superman trailer again, and I just want to say again I really dislike every scene with Jesse Eisenberg. I can applaud the idea of trying to come up with a different take on Luthor, but this Luthor is too crazy -he's like a Joker-Luthor. And must everything be so dingy? I miss color!
Doug: I have to admit that watching the trailer for the first time without sound -- I had no idea at first that it was Luthor! By the end of the clip I figured it out. So now we get maniacal Luthor, tattooed Joker... at least on Gotham I can see the Penguin in the portrayal.
