Who's the Best... Comic Book Future?

Martinex1: Whether dystopian or utopian, which comic book future world is the most fascinating, well thought out, and creative?   Which future is the best?

BAB Firsts (the 1st Versus): Who ya Got? Kang the Conqueror or Ultron?

This post was originally published on February 17 2010

Doug: The New Year brings with it some new features here on the BAB blog. Today we'll begin a semi-regular series called "versus", where we'll pit two opposing yet similar entities against each other -- not in some faux battle, but more along the lines of who we've liked better, why one is better than the other at "X", and so on. Today it's the two greatest nemeses of the Avengers, but who knows? Next time it could be Elton John versus Billy Joel! Maybe later it'll be Karen's favorite baseball player versus my nominee. So let's get on with the debate.

Doug: I guess any discussion like this can't help but start with one's personal preferences -- hey, throw objectivity out the window! So I'll begin by saying that I like the "Celestial Madonna" storyline better than I like the "Bride of Ultron" (but close -- how does one choose between two masterpieces?) -- those would be my favorite Avengers stories involving these two do-badders.
Karen: Well, you already know I'm biased! I mean I did write a whole article on Ultron for Back Issue! (on the shelves now! -Doug). Both Ultron and Kang are great adversaries for the Avengers, but I give the edge to the mad robot because of the emotional response he always evokes from the team. He's definitely the black sheep that no one wants to talk about. The son of Hank Pym, father of the Vision, and he's tried to make wives out of both the Wasp and Mockingbird. There's a lot of twisted history there! On top of that, throw in indestructible adamantium skin, and you've got a heck of a threat.

Doug: Yeah, I wouldn't discount any of that, and I would never say that I don't like Ultron. I don't know... there's just something about Kang, time travel, and the possibilities. I will admit that I've read some bad Kang stories -- the "Council of Cross-Time Kangs" that ran in the Avengers #290's didn't do much for me. I think the intent was good, and there were some good elements, but overall I didn't like it.

Doug: I really like "Celestial Madonna" 1) for the scope of it and 2) for the little extras: the Legion of the Unliving (good Kang add-on), the origin of the Vision, as well as the origin of Mantis. Kang's certifiably maniacal, he has an interesting goal, and scribe Steve Englehart executes a grand tale. I'll admit that the story ends on a clunker in GS Avengers #4 when Kang is ridiculously shoe-horned back into the story, but there's redemption in the pages of the "Serpent Crown Affair" that ran shortly thereafter. Kang's the star of the substory involving the Wild West heroes and Hawkeye, Thor and Moondragon, and meets a memorable end in combat against Thor. Really good stuff, with art by a young George Perez.

Doug: I'd be remiss if I didn't give a shout-out to two fine Kurt Busiek stories -- the "Kang Dynasty" and Avengers Forever. Although Perez was not along for either ride, the art in both stories was ably handled by Ivan Reis, Brent Anderson and Keiron Dwyer and Carlos Pacheco (respectively). While "Kang Dynasty" is a bit long (I believe 16 issues total), either would be recommended as two latter-day Kang classics.

Karen: Kang has given Earth's Mightiest a huge heaping of trouble time and again (no pun intended). Doug, you know I am also a fan of the "Celestial Madonna" saga, and it was fascinating how Englehart explored the different identities of Kang -how he connected Kang, Rama Tut, and Immortus. That's one of the cool things about time travel stories: you have endless possibilities to play with.

Karen: That being, said, I think I can toss out some of Ultron's greatest moments here and find that they measure up nicely. I think his rebirth as an adamantium-coated nightmare in Avengers 66-68 is a great early example of just how devastating he could be. The "Bride of Ultron" storyline upped the ante quite a bit; now, instead of just wanting to kill Pym, we saw Ultron also wants to supplant him and take what is his - his wife! Disturbing on a lot of levels, and it certainly left the Avengers shaken.

Karen: But Kurt Busiek -funny how that name has popped up again, isn't it? - came up with the most dangerous and devastating Ultron story yet, "Ultron Unlimited", in the third volume of Avengers. Not only does the maniac take over an entire nation, slaughter its people and turn them into cyber-zombies, he kidnaps five Avengers with plans to use their brain patterns to create an entire android race under his dominion! The remaining Avengers have to battle their way through hundreds of Ultrons to get to the true villain, giving Thor a chance to utter the famous line, "Ultron, we would have words with thee." Besides the thrilling battles, we also learn a startling fact, one that makes absolute sense, of the kind where you slap yourself in the head and say, "Of course! Why didn't I see that before?" It is revealed that Pym used his own brain patterns when he created Ultron - in effect, Ultron really is Pym's son, he has a piece of him inside him. No wonder these encounters always weighed so heavily on Pym - Ultron's actions were reflecting something inside of Pym!


Doug: That Thor line you cited is one of the all-time greats! You're making a great argument here -- were you a lawyer in a former life?? But seriously, let's evaluate: both characters have evolved through different incarnations involving technology as well as personality, both have taken on Avengers teams showcasing line-ups that could truly be called Earth's Mightiest Heroes, both have raised some serious Cain on the Earth in terms of destruction, human casualties, etc., and both seem to keep popping up every few years. You could argue, too, that Kang's constant pining after Ravonna creates a love interest somewhat akin to Ultron's quest to make himself a complete man/robot by fulfilling that need with Jocasta, etc. Kang and Ultron are head and shoulders above any other nemesis the Avengers have faced, based on longevity alone!


Doug: So if our faithful followers determine that your argument was stronger, should I feel badly? Negative -- because in this "versus", could one really go wrong on a rainy day with a stack of comics featuring either super-baddie?

BAB Classic: The Avengers: The Top 10 Stories

NOTE:  This post was originally published on 9 October 2009

With all due respect to David Letterman and all of the other Top 10ers out there, we're going to start with the #1 Avengers story of the Silver/Bronze Ages and move down the list from there. The method to the madness of this more conventional reveal is to show how each story led to the next, or at least how the stories (although all are outstanding) somewhat declined in importance as each order on the rank is discussed.

1. Return of Captain America. Avengers #4

You might assume that the first issue of the magazine would be the most important. While I would not argue that it has a revered place in Avengers history, it doesn't crack my Top 10, giving way instead to stories that have played specific influence on the mythos. The most important story in all of Avengerdom is Avengers #4, and that is due to Captain America being the single most important member of all who have worn the mantle "Avenger". While not a founder (although later to have that status conferred upon him) of the team, Cap nonetheless soon became the face of the team, the glue that held it together, and its undisputed "go to" leader. And from the depths of the ocean to the bitter cold of the Antarctic, with his Golden Age comrade the Sub-Mariner playing a key role in his revival (as a new Human Torch had played a role in the revival of the Sub-Mariner), Stan Lee and Jack Kirby crafted a tale that would go on to influence the team over the next 45+ years.

2. Intro./origin the Vision. Avengers #57-58

If Cap is the face of the team, then the Vision is the body -- it was the Vision who graced the famous corner box for almost eight years (issues 93-184). While I don't have such a statistic handy, I would argue that the Vision has made more appearances in the Avengers than any other team member besides perhaps Captain America. His first appearance and original origin story, crafted by the classic Silver Age team of scribe Roy Thomas and artist extraordinaire John Buscema, stand as a classic and set up numerous plotlines that would be dealt with for years to come -- the relationship between the Pyms and Ultron, the relationship between Wonder Man and the Vision, the introduction later of the Grim Reaper, the ongoing struggle for humanity that would lead to the Vision becoming a father, his ascension to the chairmanship and proposed takeover of the world's computers, and of course his love for and eventual marriage to the Scarlet Witch. His quiet nobility and incomparable range of powers prove him the most dangerous of team members in combat.

3. First big line-up change. Avengers #16

There was nothing more exciting than those times when the Avengers formally assembled to draft a new roster. Despite ongoing tweaks in the membership with a member coming or going here or there, it was the wholesale changes that defined the team as a book set apart from other team books. Issue #16 is significant for tying up the Captain America/Baron Zemo conflict that had raged over the previous year, and showed that although members of a team, individuals would still be free to tend to individual business. But the dynamics of this new roster -- of bringing in three virtually unheard of characters, all three of whom had been criminals and all three of whom had certainly been untested in an arena as large as any the Avengers usually clashed in -- would shape the book for the remainder of the Silver Age. Scaling down the roster from five heavy hitters to four less-powered characters helped to focus on characterization, which was necessary to bring along the development of Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch. In spite of Quicksilver's on-again, off-again tenure, Hawkeye and Wanda are in that next level of importance to the team directly below Cap and the Vision.

4. Hank's problems begin. Avengers #59-60

Hank Pym holds down the 4th spot on the list, and not for any of the right reasons. I am a big Hank-booster, and it has pained me to no end to continue to read the raw deal the man has received since the infamous wife-slap panel that occurred early in the 1980's. But prior to that the mental health ball got rolling early, even earlier than Avengers #'s 59-60. Almost from the beginning Hank had feelings of inferiority when in the presence of Thor, Iron Man, and the Hulk; later, he marvelled at the leadership of Captain America. Shortly after, he found himself stuck at a height of 10-feet. All of these things began to put pressure on him, culminating in his breakdown in Avengers #59 when he took on the identity of Yellowjacket. In my opinion, to make matters worse, Janet agreed to marry Hank while he was unbalanced -- cementing the notion that while "normal", he was unfit to be her husband. But with his new powers and (temporary) personality he became someone whom she could spend her life with. Of course, Hank's downfalls would become a regular theme in the book, and we'll get to another one shortly.

5. Intro. Ultron. Avengers #54

We conclude our look at the individuals who have shaped the book over its long and (mostly) glorious history with a discussion of their most dangerous adversary -- the adamantium-armored robot Ultron. A construct of Hank Pym, Ultron has grown in the annals of Avengers history to be severely entwined in the team's legacy in a sort of perverse family relationship. From his "father" and "mother" Hank and Janet Pym, to his "son" the Vision, to his "wife" Jocasta, Ultron has left his mark time and again against virtually all team line-ups. His indestructibility, his lethal encephalo beams, and his computer mind make him not only the team's most dangerous adversary physically, but perhaps its most dangerous emotionally as well.

6. Bride of Ultron. Avengers #161-162, 170-171

This story celebrates the brilliance of author Jim Shooter and penciller George Perez, and delves further into the fragile psyche of Henry Pym. Appearing in Avengers #161 in his Ant-Man garb and possessing memories dating to the time in between the first and second issues of the title, Pym attacks the Avengers while in the employ of his creation Ultron. The Oedipus complex of Ultron is heightened by the fact that he wants to imbue his self-created wife Jocasta with the life essence of his "mother" the Wasp. My only argument with the execution of the story is the fact that in the intervening issues, there is no mention of Hank's collapse into the Ant-Man era. It was a great plot device, yet dropped seemingly immediately.

7. Kree/Skrull War. Avengers #91-97

Roy Thomas. Neal Adams. John Buscema. Sal Buscema. The Inhumans. The Kree. The Skrulls. Heroes from Timely Comics. The fate of the universe at stake. At the time this was written it was perhaps the longest story in comics history, at seven issues. Epic is the only appropriate adjective. A timeless tale that spanned galaxies and included an Avengers line-up without peer. Don't miss the wonderful scene where Ant-Man has to enter the body of the Vision.

8. Celestial Madonna -- true origin the Vision. Avengers #129-135 and Giant-Size Avengers #'s 2-4

If the above is Avengers Epic #1, then this would be Epic #1A. We've not discussed Kang the Conqueror yet, who most Avengers fans would place either in front of or behind Ultron for the Avengers vilest villain. This is Kang's (and author Steve Englehart's) magnum opus. Focusing on Mantis and her potential to birth the child who will rule the universe, the tale takes the Avengers across time and around the world. Kang's multiple identities as Rama-tut and Immortus are dealt with. Several dead characters are resurrected, including Wonder Man (in a try-out for his future return to the book?), an assemblage of Silver Age baddies including the Crimson Dynamo, the Titanium Man, and the Radioactive Man attack the team in Saigon, the Swordsman meets his fate, and the marriage of the Vision and the Scarlet Witch is witnessed. There isn't much time to catch one's breath. Oh, and did I mention that the true origin of the Vision (bah! to John Byrne) is revealed?

9. Korvac Saga. Avengers #167-168, 170-177

Oh, you want epics? Yeah, all of the above factors of greatness, with the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Collector, and an old minor Thor villain who becomes a god thrown in. My only quibble with this story is that George Perez did not illustrate the entire run. But that's pretty small, as the plot and writing carry it through. Many have commented that the cover of #177 was one of the most impactful images of their young Avenger-reading.

10. Serpent Crown. Avengers #141-148

In some regards, this arc is the sequel to the Celestial Madonna storyline in that Kang is heavily featured in issues 142-144. As a kid I found the subplot with the team journeying to the Old West and interacting with the Two-Gun Kid, Kid Colt, the Rawhide Kid, and the Night Rider just a blast! The Squadron Supreme appears throughout in the main plot, which involves the Avengers attempting to wrest the Serpent Crown from the control of the alternate-reality president, Nelson Rockefeller. Silver Age ditz Patsy Walker becomes the Hellcat, Captain America returns to the team after the Nomad saga in his own book, and a young fellow named George Perez takes over the artistic chores. Not bad...

Now, if I were to name one other story, sort of a best-of-the-rest, it would definitely be Avengers #56, "Death Be Not Proud". To start, it has a powerful cover drawn by John Buscema. A very memorable image of Cap and the fallen Bucky, surrounded by that Avengers famous cover device, the floating heads. The story is incredibly emotional, and fleshes out the true end of Bucky's life in a time-travel tale that actually spills over into Avengers Annual #2. A classic, classic tale.

So, where did I err?

The Mighty Marvel Try-Out Book: Avengers 71

Avengers #71 (December 1969)
"Endgame!"
Roy Thomas-Sal Buscema/Sam Grainger

Doug:  Karen and I thought it would be fun to do another series of "Marvel Firsts", although this one's sort of a do-it-ourselves.  Of the books we're going to review during the rest of September, only Marvel Spotlight #5 is actually contained in the Marvel Firsts: the 1970's series of trade paperbacks (again -- get these if you haven't already!).  It's interesting because we are certainly featuring characters (and one team - today) that were big in the '70's; however, three of our heroes perhaps enjoyed their greatest popularity in the 1990's.  So, let's get on with it and check out Roy Thomas' first dabbling with... the Invaders!

Karen: Much like how Roy would do a "preview" of the Defenders with his "Titans Three" issues of Sub-Mariner, where he teamed Namor with the Hulk and the Silver Surfer, this issue shows how long the idea for the Invaders must have been bumping around in his fair-haired noggin. Thank goodness it finally came to be in 1975.

Doug:  We open in Garrett Castle, where Dane Whitman (better known to us as the Black Knight) descends a set of stone steps to the Brazier of Truth.  He has a torch in hand, and needs to light it so that he can get the answers to pressing questions.  Sir Percy of Scandia, the original Black Knight, is summoned in a sort of weird seance.  Sir Percy bids Dane listen, and shows him what has gone before.  The Grandmaster and Kang the Conqueror have engaged in a contest of champions for the fate of the Earth.  Kang chose as his warriors his enemies, the Avengers.  To combat Earth's Mightiest Heroes, the Grandmaster created a team known as the Squadron Sinister.  Hyperion, Nighthawk, Dr. Spectrum, and the Whizzer battled the Avengers across the globe.  But the Black Knight interrupted the battle between Goliath (nee Hawkeye) and the Whizzer in the streets of London.  This wild card, in the eyes of the Grandmaster, negated the game and so another scenario for sport was crafted.  But Kang's heart was not in the battle, only in the outcome.  For what he really hoped to gain was a way to restore full life to the comatose Ravonna, his true love.  Now that the Knight knew these details, he felt better equipped to further assist his heroic allies.

Karen: It's funny, I tend to think of the Knight as being a very basic hero with minimal abilities, but he's got this whole magical background, what with communing with the spirit of his ancestor. This was drawn well, just as you'd expect. Kang's pining for Ravonna also reminds me, in a different away, of Dr. Doom's softer side, where he was always trying to save the soul of his dead mother. Just another effort by Lee, Thomas, etc. to add depth to their villains I suppose.

Doug:  Cut to the 41st Century,where Kang and the Grandmaster await the beginning of their "endgame".  Kang monitors his latest team of champions, consisting of the Vision, Yellowjacket, and the Black Panther.  These Avengers have been dropped through the timestream and have landed in 1941 Nazi-occupied Paris.  They approach German guards and despatch them handily.  However, the tension mounts and then explodes as fireballs scatter the Avengers.  Emerging through a hole in time and space step Captain America, the Sub-Mariner, and the Original Human Torch!  And what's worse -- they think they're fighting emissaries of the Nazis!  So it's game on in war torn France, as "Okay, Axis -- Here We Come!" meets "Avengers Assemble!"

 

Karen: I love that bottom panel with the two trios squaring off. I'm sure they chose to use Cap's triangular shield to differentiate him from the modern day Cap, but I think he only used that in his first issue. That's probably been retconned a dozen times over by now. In any case, it works. Subby also has slightly different trunks than we're used to- they're not scaled, and they're darker, with green highlights.

Doug:  Back in Garrett Castle, the Black Knight knows he cannot go into the past to assist his friends in Paris -- no, instead he must find a way to go into the future.  Dane Whitman is one with his ebony blade -- yet it was in the hands of the Avenger Goliath when the Grandmaster transported the Avengers to the 41st Century.  With the help of Sir Percy, the Knight concentrates and through just a little medieval magic emerges two millennia (and then some!) into the future.  As fate would have it, Whitman arrives in the very chamber the Avengers are being held in some sort of mental stasis -- and his blade is on the floor right in front of the unconscious Goliath!  Suddenly Kang's guards burst in, but  the Black Knight makes short work of them.  Now in possession of the ebony blade, and hearing a damsel in distress, the Black Knight cleaves a wall of the chamber to reveal Janet van Dyne Pym -- the Winsome Wasp!

Karen: This reminds me of the much-more drawn out sequence during Under Siege when Dane was captured and couldn't summon the sword to him. I hadn't realized before reading these two books that he could utilize the sword this way, as a sort of transportation method. It's interesting that he goes crashing through a wall to find Jan, as he'd develop an attraction to her later on. But what's up with that ugly checkered outfit she has on? That has to be one of the least appealing suits we've seen her in.

Doug:  To Paris we're returned, and match-ups have been drawn:  Cap squares off against the Panther, which is cool since T'Challa had replaced Cap on the Avengers' active roster just about 20 issues prior.  YJ and Subby duke it out, and in the best match-up -- physically and certainly symbolically -- the Vision tangles with the Torch.  The Avengers are reluctant to go all out, which is interesting as I think I'd put my money on the WWII heroes in the battle.  But as you might guess, the lesser-powered Avengers use guile and surprise to gain the upper hand, never harming their 1940's counterparts.  Hank and T'Challa finally decide that in order to win and solve the Kang problem, they have to truly defeat Cap and company.  They concoct a plan that the "Invaders" never see coming -- the intangible Vision flies low and then accelerates through the WWII boys, partially solidifying as he does.  We all know what that does...

Karen: The displays of fighting skills and agility between Cap and the Panther are exciting. There's nothing like watching two combatants whose main gifts are their athleticism. YJ and Namor seems like a terrible mismatch, as Subby has it all over YJ in raw power (watch him punch through a brick wall!) but YJ has some tricks up his sleeve -namely insects, and lots of them.The critters annoy Subby so much he flies off to find the nearest body of water, buying YJ a brief respite. The Vision and Torch match-up makes my head spin - are they different beings who've shared the same body? Is this the future 'Torch' returned to face himself, or is it more like his ancestor? It also seems appropriate that T'Challa is the one who takes the initiative and comes up with the plan to win. Why in the world didn't we see him leading the Avengers at some point?

 

Doug:  Meanwhile, in the future Kang immediately claims victory, but the Grandmaster says "not so fast"--  the first match involving the Squadron Sinister had ended in a stalemate due to the interference of the Black Knight.  So Kang cannot claim a full victory -- the Grandmaster instead makes him this offer:  Kang can be the master of life or death.  Pick one -- save the life of his beloved Ravonna, or kill the Avengers.  And wouldn't you know that at that very instant the Avengers enter... and they aren't happy.  But Captain America makes Kang a startling offer -- send the Avengers back to their own time and all will be forgiven.  Yeah, right -- that's not exactly how guys like Kang operate.  He thinks momentarily about Ravonna, and then like any egomaniac, assumes that he will himself eventually find a way to save her.  So it is the power of death that he chooses!

Karen: Kang was so close to choosing life for Ravonna -but his utter hatred of the Avengers wouldn't let him do it.  And you're right about the egotism -again, all very Doom-like. 

Doug:  We've said it 1000 times before around here -- if you're a super-baddie, and you're going to off your main enemy, JUST DO IT!!  What's all the cat-and-mouse business?  You guessed it -- Kang toys with Cap and the Panther, and even Thor.  Then he puts a hurtin' on the whole team, dropping them where they stand -- on the very edge of death!  But what he didn't count on was that the Black Knight... isn't an Avenger!  Kang's beside himself, and the Knight takes advantage of his confusion.  One home run swing of the flat side (natch) of the ebony blade, and Kang's down.  The Knight asks how he was able to do it so easily, and the Grandmaster explains that Kang had mastery only over the Avengers -- so the Knight was not under that "plan".  As Kang lay there moaning and groaning, the Grandmaster just decides to leave, sending the Avengers back to 1969 as he goes.

Karen: I know, realistically it makes no sense, other than the idea that they want their enemies to suffer so they can gloat. When you're dealing with enormous egos like this, and not common thugs, perhaps it can be forgiven. Besides, it's more exciting than a bullet to the brain. I liked how Panther and Cap charged in, and Thor protested that he should be in the vanguard! These Avengers were not short on bravery. The whole 'flat-of-my-blade' thing is tiresome but it's the problem you accept when you decide to use a sword-wielding hero in a modern super-hero setting. Unless you're fighting monsters or other non-human creatures you're stuck with non-lethal solutions, and it's somehow just less satisfactory. Although I can't complain about the Knight's look -always thought he was a groovy-looking guy. 

Doug:  Conan never needed no stinkin' flat of his blade.  Anyway, back in our "present", the team shares relief that their ordeal is over.  They also heap gratitude on their longtime ally, the Black Knight.  T'Challa suggests it first, and Thor runs with it -- the Black Knight is offered, and accepts, membership in the Avengers!  And then we get one of the iconic images of Earth's Mightiest Heroes, as Sal Buscema and Sam Grainger treat us to a pretty nifty pin-up to close the issue.

Karen: It's a happy ending, with a gorgeous pin-up. Those were the days, huh? Besides the heroes pictured (nine altogether), we still had Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch floating in and out of the roster. Basically eleven Avengers, not counting Hulk, who I wouldn't at this point, nor Swordsman (although both would show up for Avengers #100), nor Wonder Man, who was still considered to be dead. I really like the idea of the Avengers being the elite super-hero group, with a limited roster. I wouldn't have minded seeing it stay within about 20 heroes total. Today more characters are Avengers than aren't. We've got Secret Avengers, Mighty Avengers, Uncanny Avengers, Double-Secret Probation Avengers.... it just goes on and on until there's nothing special about being an Avenger. Give me one team, and one team only. Like this one.

Doug:  I loved this story!  I generally like Avengers tales where Kang the Conqueror is involved, and this one really didn't disappoint.  A huge kudo to Roy Thomas for his scripting of the battle between "the Invaders" and the team that was sent to 1941 Paris.  It's been well-documented that the Golden Age comic books were heavily influential on a young Thomas, and he really shows his love by virtually reproducing the sort of dialogue we'd have seen way back when.  I also want to dote on the art -- those of us who loved Sal Buscema's tenure on Captain America, that would come a few years hence, get a nice taste of what that would look like.  Karen and I were privileged to receive a comment from Sam Grainger's daughter on the BAB last week, and I'll toss additional kudos his way for the inking of Sal in this story -- top-notch stuff.  This is just a really solid issue from that peak on which you look down one side at the Silver Age, and the other toward the Bronze Age.  Oh yeah -- and Spider-Man and Wolverine aren't ever going to be Avengers in my Marvel Universe!

Time Passages: Marvel Team-Up 11

Marvel Team-Up #11 (July 1973)
"The Doomsday Gambit!"
Writers: Gerry Conway and Len Wein
Pencils: Jim Mooney
Inker: Mike Esposito

Karen: So who's ready for part three? We've been rather hard on this storyline, but now we're in the home stretch, and I can say while this isn't a classic, it isn't nearly so bad as our last outing. Besides, at least it's jam-packed with Inhumans to ogle! And that cover is pretty sweet -it looks like Romita to me, and Comic Book Database lists Romita, although it says, "Unconfirmed," so I suppose it's their best guess.

Doug:  Image-wise, I couldn't agree with you more -- it's indeed a most sweet drawing.  But "the most long-awaited battle in the history of comicdom"?  Ummm...  Stan would be proud of that sort of hyperbole!

Karen: Len Wein takes over the scripting chores, and his Spidey is much more light-hearted than Conway's, who is still given credit for the plot. I was thinking about it, and this whole story seems like it could have been inspired by Bob Haney and his bizarre Brave and the Bold tales which my partner has featured here frequently. It's a team-up, it's convoluted, it's apparently out of synch with continuity...and much of it leaves you shaking your head. Our first head-shaking moment is the splash page, where we find Spidey swinging down from a helicopter deep into the Himalayas -yes, he's hitched a ride all the way to the Himalayas, and manages to ignore the freezing cold and swing between the mountain peaks as he searches for the hidden home of the Inhumans. Let it go. Just let it go.

Doug:  Specifically, the travel in this storyline has been about as implausible as that Brave and the Bold we reviewed where the Flash ran to the sun!  As to the specific travel on the splash page (so are we to believe he found an American 'copter pilot in a) Latin America, b) SE Asia, or c) none of the above -- somehow he hooked up with this guy and they found a bird with big enough gas tanks to fly around the world), I suppose it doesn't stray too much from how we've seen the Webslinger gettin' around NYC -- on the roof of a bus, swinging from a news station's traffic helicopter, or bouncing from building to car to truck.  BUT -- yeah, you already said it.  I do like the pose that the art team employed, however.

Karen: We should take a moment to discuss the art. Jim Mooney is back again, this time inked by Mike Eposito. It's serviceable, but I find Esposito's inks less pleasing than Giacoia's from last ish.  I'm not sure what it is about it, but the art just looks a little rougher.

Doug:  I think the influence of Esposito is most seen in the faces throughout the story.  Last week I commented that I can generally spot Jim Mooney's work, mostly through his faces (specifically the eyes).  But here it's not so obvious.  I'll add that there's a hint of Gil Kane (read: Kane's influence.  I'm not suggesting that Kane had any role in this mag) in some of the figurework.  I also noticed that at times bodies seem a bit stiff, like poorly-articulated action figures might have been used as models.

Karen: Back to the story, Spidey comes through a pass and sees the huge dome of the Great Refuge, home of the Inhumans. He's immediately attacked by some of the residents, who come after him on funky flying platforms. One of them clips him, and he falls, only to be caught by another. But the web-slinger is out for the count. He regains consciousness in the throne room of Black Bolt, ruler of the Inhumans. With the king are his royal family -- Gorgon, Triton, and Karnak, who acts as Black Bolt's voice. Karnak questions Spider-Man, asking why he has come to their hidden land. Spidey then spends nearly two pages recapping MTU's 9 and 10, thankfully leaving out some of the more insipid parts. He explains that he has sought out the Inhumans because Zarrko's time disruption device emits a radiation similar to that of the negative zone around the Great Refuge, and Spidey thought maybe they could figure out some way to use the devic to send him back to Zarrko's time to save the Avengers and battle Zarrko and Kang. Gorgon, always ready for a fight, pipes up that they'll all go to the future with him -- and then remembers to ask Black Bolt what he thinks. The silent king is all for it.

Doug:  Did you think it was a little clunky that Spidey carried the device, rather than making some sort of backpack out of webbing to schlep it around in?  I'm thinking that if I were him, I would rather have been a little more precise in my webslinging around those mountains.  You know, had we the time, a neat post would be to assemble images of single-carry assault vehicles!  But I don't have the time.  Hey, Comicsfan!!  Is that in your wheelhouse?

Doug:  Spider-Man was unconscious for some time -- I loved the minutiae of actually showing his webbing dissolve off of the time bomb.  Karnak was his usual short-man-syndrome self; come to think of it, Triton's easygoing personality sort of saves the Royal Family's men from being a complete set of asocials!  I'm with you on the recap -- had we done this as a single issue review rather than a 3-issue arc, I think we'd have both been happier!  I'll also agree with you, now that we're about halfway through this issue, that Len Wein's dialogue (while not perfect) is more palatable than what Gerry Conway had written in parts 1 and 2.

Karen: The royal family takes the time device to Maximus, their insane cousin who is locked up in a nice, safe cell, and asks him if he can turn it into a time machine. Of course he says yes, and they hand it over to him. Spidey is incredulous -"You guys sure you know what you're doing?" he asks when he sees Maximus, who looks like he could give the Joker a run for his money in the fruit loops department. Karnak tells Spidey to relax; sure, Maxie is nuts, but his pride won't let him fail. Oh-kay...you mean he wouldn't use the parts to create a death ray or anything like that... or to escape...? OK, let's just roll with it. While Maximus works on the time machine, Triton gives Spidey a tour of the Inhumans' home, but the wall-crawler is impatient -he's itching to get 'back to the future' and set things straight. They return to check on Maximus and find he's finished adjusting the device. He tells the five of them to gather around the device and as they do he presses a switch and whammo! They find themselves standing outside the future citadel that we saw in issue 9. But oddly enough, they have come back at a point in time prior to when Spider-Man left, as he sees the guards all still lying around and Zarrko entering the building and repeating his actions from before. Just as they are about to enter the citadel, they are attacked by guards on flying sleds. Black Bolt takes to the air, and weaves about, causing two of his attackers to slam into each other. On the ground, Gorgon stomps one of his huge hooves and sends men flying. Karnak on the other hand essentially karate chops his foes. Spidey once again spins a huge web to trap the flying soldiers, like he did in issue 9, and Triton just punches guys. So we have a demonstration of each hero's powers, but to be honest, it's kind of lackluster.

Doug:  You know, Black Bolt and Maximus are brothers, Medusa and Crystal are sisters -- why are all of the other Inhumans only children?  That brings me to a thought, so here's a little "Inside the BAB editorial meeting room" -- for a couple of years we've knocked around the idea of doing a series called "Tales of Attilan", where we review some of the Lee/Kirby Inhumans tales that ran as back-ups in Silver Age Thors.  What sayest thou, the faithful BAB reader?  But back to the story at hand... you know how, a few years ago, the Hulk was blasted off to the moon or wherever?  Maximus was such a pain in the fanny over the years, I don't know why the Inhumans didn't do that to him!  Your misgivings about Maximus are well-placed -- who is to say that the little nutjob didn't memorize how the time bomb worked and come up with something similar of his own design later?  And how did they trust him in the first place?  Death ray, indeed!

Doug:  I know many of our readers enjoy the nit-picking that can go on in time travel, so here's one for you:  Maximus sent the good guys back to the future, but arriving minutes before Spider-Man vacated the premises to try to get help.  So technically, Spider-Man has been alive in the time in which the Inhumans arrive as the cavalry.  Doesn't his presence in this scene duplicate his presence in the scene as it played out back in issue #9?   Effectively, there are two Peter Parkers running around now, one living in the moment and the other with knowledge of events yet to occur.  Raise your hand if you find this confusing.

Karen: (raises hand)

Doug:  I enjoyed the series of panels that showed the Inhumans cutting loose.  We've remarked in the past that team-up books often served as marketing vehicles for B-level characters.  In case anyone is wondering, this issue would have been on the stands about a year and a half after the Inhumans ended their run in Amazing Adventures, and a bit over two years ahead of the Inhumans self-titled series of 1975.This issue

of Marvel Team-Up seems to be that midway jumping on point for new readers, historically speaking.

Karen: Finally our quintet breaks through to where Kang and Zarrko are squaring off (with the Avengers locked up like action figures on shelves behind them). Kang zaps Zarrko with the same ray he had paralyzed Spidey and Iron Man with, and then turns as he hears the airlock opening.  Kang sees the new arrivals and surprised, shouts, "No, it cannot be! Not you! Not you!" So now we know who he saw in issue 10 after Spidey left- although his reaction seems a bit over the top! He quickly recovers his wits and tries to zap our heroes but they dodge his ray. Seeing this, he conveniently tells them that once he flips this switch, the Avengers will die. But Spider-Man sprays webbing on his hand, making it too sticky to pull the lever (that's what it says!), so with his other hand, Kang pulls a pistol and is about to shoot, but Black Bolt sees this and decides to speak. Yes, he can level buildings with his voice, but he's apparently being careful. He sends the time-warrior flying, also smashing his equipment, and freeing the Avengers. How's that for efficiency? Spidey sees Zarrko trying to take off, so he hogties him and rolls him up in a web ball.

Doug:  Master of time aside, had Kang had any interactions with the Inhumans previously?  We're unequivocally led to believe "no", but I agree -- his reaction seemed way too strong for the sight of Spidey alone.  I find Kang a difficult foe to defeat -- or at least he should be.  He should be the Brainiac-5 of the Marvel Universe:  forcefield belt, gravity controls in his suit, etc.  Instead, Gorgon stomps him right onto his blue butt!  Black Bolt's voice is the biggest deus ex machina in the MU...

Karen: Everything seems good, the Avengers are getting back on their feet, the villains, have been foiled -- hey,what about Kang? Spidey goes to check on him and discovers-an empty suit! "We were battling  -a puppet!" Suddenly a voice comes out of nowhere, and tells the heroes that they think they've won, but they'll meet again, blah blah blah. So it seems Kang was never really there, although this whole empty suit thing is pretty silly. Why not just have a robot? How does an empty suit move? Anyway  the time device conveniently teleports Spidey and the Avengers to New York, and the Inhumans to the Great Refuge, and things are pretty much back to status quo.

Doug:  To quote one of my least-favorite comic book scribes:  Oy...

Karen: I suppose this three-parter ended better than we might have hoped, based on the middle section, but this ending was still fairly mediocre. I feel the art was a real let-down. You've got the Inhumans in the book, so you have at least five super-heroes running around for a good portion of the time, yet there was no sense of excitement to this tale. The fight scenes were dull and static. The biggest problem was the story was weak. I think this was not unusual in MTU and other team up books. I've read the first ten issues of MTU in the Masterworks format now and I can honestly say they're mediocre at best. They're mostly an excuse to get two characters together. Now I do think there were some very good MTU's put out -the Claremont/Byrne run was exceptional - but by and large, these early issues were not very good.

Doug:  Our buddy J.A. Morris, among many others, has used the term "holds up" when referring to certain stories here and on his own blog.  I argued many years ago over on the Avengers Assemble boards that I didn't know what that meant, that even the not-so-great stories had an inherent charm linked to the time in which they were written.  Feeling middle-of-the-road and non-combatitive as I write this, I'll offer that this 3-parter is indeed something that doesn't "hold up".  Karen and I have remarked that as we write these reviews some 25-45 years later that it is difficult to view them as we did when we were children.  But man -- how cool was it to grab these off the shelf or spinner rack back in 1973?  Seriously?  Iron Man, the Torch, the Inhumans, the Avengers, and Kang the Conqueror.  Sign me up!  But as discriminating adults, this storyline, as a story, borders on rubbish.  So, hard as we've been, I keep telling myself that when I purchased Marvel Two-In-One #7 with the Thing, the Valkyrie, and the Executioner on the cover it was the best piece of literature I owned at that time.  And since I haven't read it since 1974, I don't even know if it holds up -- but I still have that goofy-grin feeling as I did when I was an 8-year old.  And somewhere there's a Bronze Age fan who didn't read today's review, who still thinks Marvel Team-Up #'s 9-11 is some fine reading.  I think I envy that person.