Showing posts with label Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. Show all posts

Sunday, April 3, 2016

Discuss: Batman V. Superman -Spoiled


Karen: Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice has been out more than a week and I did go see it last weekend. The critics were not kind to it. Knowing this going in, I tried to both keep an open mind, and keep my expectations low. Honestly, based on the trailers, I was already feeling that this was not going to be the versions of Batman and Superman I was hoping for. But I was hoping to be entertained.

Karen: After seeing it, I felt that perhaps the critics had been too harsh. Certainly, visually, it has flair. On some level, I was entertained. But thematically, it was far from what I would have liked to have gotten from a film featuring Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. It is -like Man of Steel and the Christopher Nolan Batman films -unrelentingly dark. It's obvious DC/Warners has decided they want to be as far from the Marvel movies as possible, and they've avoided humor at all costs. The movie is not only dark in tone but dark visually. The muddy appearance is disappointing. 


Karen: But what's really disappointing for me is the direction they've gone with our two main characters. I'm getting into SPOILER territory here, so you may want to stop reading. After the massive destruction of Metropolis in Man of Steel, we're told the public is divided over what to think of Superman -some worship him, while others fear him. But Superman himself is uncertain what his role should be and seems removed from humanity -after an incident in Washington, he visits Ma Kent and she tells him that he doesn't owe humanity anything. Really? He has a little existential hike where he sees the spirit/memory of Pa Kent, who relates a story to him about how he saved the family farm during a flood -and caused another family to lose their livestock. Really? So every good act is ultimately futile? This is the same 'let 'em die' Pa Kent from the first film and I have to say it was one of the things I couldn't stand about that movie either. Superman saves people. He is not above mankind, he lives among us and genuinely cares about people. He has hope. He IS hope. This movie makes Superman look like a miserable chump.I really would have liked to have seen a standalone Superman film where he deals with the consequences of the first movie, making restitution for the damage and essentially earning his place. But no dice, because Warners/DC was so hot to get to the other guy.

Karen: Batman may be worse. Yes, he is an older, disillusioned Batman. I get that. But would even that version of Batman go around killing people? Make no mistake, this Batman kills people. He has guns mounted in the Batmobile, and he uses them. He blasts away at Luthor's men during a car chase, and he uses the winch in the Batmobile to sling a car on top of others, surely crushing them. But even worse, in one fight sequence, he yanks a gun away from a bad guy and uses it to shoot other bad guys. Yes, Batman uses a gun. With bullets. To kill people. Oh, and he shoots a guy wearing a flamethrower, exploding his gas tank, setting him on fire. Oh, and he brands criminals. And this is the dude who thinks he has the moral high ground against Superman? Even Miller's Dark Knight Batman made a statement against using guns (see our recent review of The Dark Knight issue 4).  There's the implication at the end of the film that he's changed his ways. I hope we see this in the next movie.

Karen: The whole tone of the film places these super-beings outside the human experience - they aren’t living in our world, they live in their own, and our needs and concerns are not theirs. It’s cold and unpleasant. Wonder Woman is actually a bright spot - she's the only one acting heroically. 



Karen: The film is also over-stuffed, like a super-burrito, with elements from so many comics, that nothing has room to breathe, and much doesn't make sense. It's almost like they threw everything in because they thought they might not get another shot. I mean, they've got parts of the Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, the new 52 stuff, Red Son...there are little bits in the film that are meaningless, I'm sure, if you aren't a comics fan, and do nothing to help the film. Some times this is fun, but a little goes a long way. I like the Red Son story, for example, but the dream sequence or message here that Batman experiences doesn't seem to have a payoff  -especially combined with an awkward Flash appearance (from Flashpoint or something else I haven't read apparently). I suppose maybe they'll be used in a future film? The vignettes with the other Justice League members were the worst examples of this. 

Karen: The thing that's so maddening is the feeling that a good film could have been made. I liked the actors -with the exception of Jesse Eisenberg as Luthor, who seemed to think he should be acting like the Joker. Batman has never looked better. Much  of the film is visually stunning (even with the muddy tones). But the story is so muddled, and the characters -I can't call them heroes -are so far from what I expect...I just feel frustrated, because I know we're going to get more of this from DC. 

Tuesday, March 15, 2016

The Dark Knight Returned - Epilogue


Doug: Here's a little bonus for you. At the back of the 10th anniversary edition of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller's original script for yesterday's review ("The Dark Knight Falls") is included. It's quite a bit different from what saw print. However, with the Batman v Superman film on our doorstep, we thought it would be interesting to look at the battle scene between our heroes. We published that big fight in its entirety just so you could compare it to Miller's outline today. Enjoy!



Friday, December 4, 2015

Batman v. Superman: Yawn of Justice ?


Karen: A new Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice trailer came out late Wednesday, so if you want to stay unspoiled, just ignore this post. If you want to know what's what, proceed oh true believer...


Karen: Your hosts exchanged some email remarks about this trailer yesterday. Without ado, here they are, and please jump into the comments with your own thoughts.

Karen: Thoughts on the new trailer? I just find myself not excited for this one. I am wondering if I have prejudiced myself. But I look at it and I dislike Jesse Eisenberg's Lex greatly, I think Doomsday looks like uninspired, mid-90s CGI...I don't know. Curious what you think.


Doug: Ha! I was just texting with my son about it. I get pretty excited for the Marvel trailers (well, nothing related to Deadpool *8-| rolling eyes), but all the publicity for BvS leaves me flat. The only positive I'd say is that for wanting the look for Batman of TDKR, they nailed it.

I admittedly watched the trailer without sound the first time, so will have to correct that. Not sure it will make a difference. And I'm still put off by the messianic imagery surrounding Superman. Just bugs me.


Karen: I only watched it once on my phone this morning, but I am just not sold on it. I ask myself if part of the problem is because I grew up a Marvel fan, but I honestly don't think so. I loved the JLA cartoons and I would welcome a well-done live action version of the DC characters. I re-saw a good chunk of Man of Steel over the weekend and although I like Henry Cavill, I felt they got just about everything about Superman wrong. That's the feeling I get from this trailer too. There's a sort of ugliness to it all that rubs me the wrong way.

Speaking of Batman's look, both my husband and I noticed that in this and the mini-trailer they put out a few days ago, Batman looks a lot like he did in the Red Son graphic novel. I wonder if they are utilizing that story or at least elements of it in some way?

Doug: Here is a text from my 24-year old son [Yeah it's just going to be bad]:

Blogger's summary of the trailer:

Act I: Bruce Wayne is Batman and makes his way to Metropolis where him and Clark Kent/Superman get feisty like two little school girls. Act II: Lex Luthor does something to make them turn against each other. It’s obvious Kyrptonite is involved or else Batman wouldn’t stand a chance. They even show Superman de-masking Batman, a detail that is so unnecessary to know going into the movie. Act III: They kiss and make up to defeat Lex Luthor’s monsters and have a beef off to see who is going to slay Wonder Woman.

Yes, that seems to be what I saw!


Karen: Your son is right to the point! My 20 year old nephew, who loves all  this stuff, also posted on Facebook "Wow, what an awful trailer." So I guess it's not just us old curmudgeons complaining.

Do you think part of it is that we really don't want to see our heroes fighting each other? But then, how do we explain the excitement over Civil War? I suppose you could argue that Marvel has built that universe up so that we have had many films with these guys on the same side, so we have an investment in the characters and it means more for them to be turning against each other. But I don't think it's that either.

I think it just doesn't look fun. It looks like it's going to be a slog through a dark, ugly, unpleasant world and I don't have much interest in going there.


Doug: One comment we made to each other was the continued destruction of cities in the DC films. I remarked that at least the Avengers felt guilty about it. This was one of our knocks on Man of Steel, if I recall.

It would not bother me to wait to see this. I felt strange about not going to see Fantastic Four -- shoot, is that even going to be released on video? Let's say I'm over it. I don't care if I ever see Man of Steel again, and the last Batman trilogy really wore on me. By the end they were not enjoyable. I don't think Batman should be portrayed on film as even close to the 1966 version; but c'mon -- the man could have at least a little personality. I guess I would have thought that grim-n-gritty would have gone out of style after 20 years.

And I'll admit to being ignorant on the following posit, but DC sure seems to find success in their television universe (which I don't watch). I'm just not sure why they can't translate that to big budget motion pictures.

And in regard to the basic premise of the heroes battling: I think we accept it in the Marvel Universe because that's the way it was almost from Day One. Witness the Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch in the Golden Age, and at the dawn of the Silver Age the internal bickering within the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and the X-Men. Stan tapped into that tension and played it for all it was worth. But the DC we grew up on, at least up to 1985, was unicorns and rainbows. So although Dark Knight, etc. was 30 years ago, it still seems out of place in the DCU to me.


Karen: Both film franchises find themselves in a position of having their characters deal with the repercussions of the massive destruction they have caused. Superman, for the destruction of Metropolis in his first film, and the Avengers, for what happened to Sokovia in Age of Ultron. Yet, as you mentioned below, with the Avengers, I always felt they were doing their very best to save everyone and minimize the devastation, whereas in Man of Steel, it never seemed like Superman gave a damn about the utter demolition of the city that he was contributing to. Never an effort to get people out of harm's way (maybe that one soldier) or to prevent the Kryptonians from destroying the city. So I sort of see Superman as part of the problem but I feel the Avengers really still are the good guys. I suppose we'll have to see how Batman v. Superman addresses what Superman/Clark has done to pay the city back. Assuming he does. Of course, the Superman I know never would be in this position in the first place.

I'd like to see a version of Batman similar to the one in the JLA or Batman animated series -a smart guy, a driven guy, but one who still has a strong sense of compassion at his core. That has been missing for me. And of course, no more grunting voices...Bat-fleck is also way too hulking but that's Dark Knight for ya.


I have been watching Flash, and still watch Supergirl, although I am not impressed with it. Flash at least has that sense of fun and heroism that seems to be missing from the Batman films and (so far) Superman. But the TV and movie DC universes seem light years apart.


Doug: You know, it's funny what you said earlier about investing in the characters, because although I've never been an Iron Man fan outside of the Avengers I have loved Robert Downey, Jr.'s portrayal of the character in the films. Portrayal only -- I really don't like the MCU Iron Man. I love Captain America, and Chris Evans has brought the character to life. Part of the draw for me from the Civil War trailer is Tony Stark's odd point of view that he and Cap had been "friends". I would certainly disagree with that in the MCU, so I'm anxious to see how it turns out.

So that Batman and Superman are going to fight... cinematically there's no investment in any prior relationship. One look at it and you know you're not dealing with "World's Finest". Do I really care that they are going to be at each other's throats?


DC should not neglect that they do a pretty good job of feature-length animated movies, and I'd argue that some of those are better than the live-action stuff. There's just no market for such things in the theaters.


Karen: We know Batman and Superman are going to fight, and then they (and Wonder Woman) are going to team up to fight Doomsday, but yeah, since we've only seen Superman in one film before and the  other two not at all, how much will we care? It will be interesting to see if DC can pull off this sort of reverse version of the way Marvel did things.

On this Civil War tangent -I do agree that the tension between Cap and Stark was always there, with little friendship evident. Maybe they had a form of mutual respect. But I was perplexed at the end of Age of Ultron when everything was hunky dory between the Big Three. I saw most of Iron Man 3 again over Thanksgiving (this is what you do when you're sick, watch TV), and while I don't hate it as much as I used to, Stark's never been a bigger jerk than in that film. He really is a selfish, arrogant ass most of the time! It's only Downey's charm that sells the character.

I watched the Batman v Superman trailer again, and I just want to say again I really dislike every scene with Jesse Eisenberg. I can applaud the idea of trying to come up with a different take on Luthor, but this Luthor is too crazy -he's like a Joker-Luthor. And must everything be so dingy? I miss color!


Doug: I have to admit that watching the trailer for the first time without sound -- I had no idea at first that it was Luthor! By the end of the clip I figured it out. So now we get maniacal Luthor, tattooed Joker... at least on Gotham I can see the Penguin in the portrayal.

Saturday, August 8, 2015

True or False: The Dark Knight Returns Has Affected Superman As Much As It Has Batman


Doug: I've been thinking about this since we discussed upcoming superhero movies several days ago. We'd all agree that Batman became grittier after Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. But what about Superman? Prior to "Dark Knight", wasn't it a good thing that Superman was the "big blue Boy Scout"? Since, and certainly in regard to his depiction on film in Man of Steel and apparently upcoming in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, DC seems to want to tear him away from his classic interpretation. So, today...

True or False: The Dark Knight Returns has affected Superman as much as it has Batman.


Friday, July 31, 2015

Submitted for Your Thoughts and Impressions -- Superhero Stills from Upcoming Flicks

Jubilee and Jean Grey, from X-Men: Apocalypse
Archangel concept art, X-Men: Apocalypse
Psylocke, Apocalypse, and Magneto, from X-Men: Apocalypse
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Princess Diana and Bruce Wayne, from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justic
Bat-Hulk, er, Batman v. Superman, from Empire Magazine
Dr. Doom, from Fantastic Four


Saturday, April 18, 2015

Get Your Popcorn Ready


NOTE: During housekeeping on April 27 2020, I must report that I no longer recall the clips that were attached to this post. Those with broken links shall, alas, remain broken.

Karen: There have been a ton of clips from the upcoming Avengers:Age of Ultron film hitting the internet recently. Are you avoiding them or watching them all? I've pretty much stopped now, wanting to go in to the theater not knowing everything that's going to happen in the film. But here's a couple to get us talking:




Karen: Looking good, although I am still thrown by Ultron's voice. I like James Spader but it's just not what I expect for Ultron. We'll see how it works out in the film.

Karen: Marvel also gave us a full Ant-Man trailer last week. This one had the title character in action, and it also gave us a good look at Yellowjacket -the villain of the film. It's definitely going to have humor but it seems like it will be balanced with a lot of super-heroics. Thoughts?


Karen: DC just got in on the action with the release of the first trailer for Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. This looks to borrow heavily from The Dark Knight Returns, as well as address the massive destruction of Man of Steel. I'm not sure what to think yet, but it looks awfully dark. I did think that Batman dialog was way too cheesy.



Karen: How about the small screen? Has anyone been watching Daredevil on Netflix? I've seen five episodes so far, and I'm impressed. The production is high-quality all the way around. My only complaint would be the excessive violence, which feels unnecessary to me (I don't need to see a villain beat a man's head into pulp to understand he's volatile and a bad guy). But the story and acting are strong enough that I'll keep  watching -and I'm not even particularly fond of the comics!


Karen: Finally, I can't close without noting that a trailer for the next Star Wars film dropped on April 16th. I am concerned about this one -I want it to be good, because they are bringing back Luke, Han, Leia, and Chewie! -but it is J.J. Abrams at the helm, and his track record is decidedly mixed. But watching this trailer the first time, my heart started pounding. It's Star Wars!

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